Your thoughts on DCA corps going to B flat horns?

[Donny Drum Corps]

What Chris said is so true. DCA is so much better now than 10 years ago, and his corps is certainly one of the reasons why. Corps that could have been 5th ten years ago will struggle to make finals these days with the same talent and program that could have been 5th then.

Band kids outwork the DCA corps members easily, but because of instrumentation...woodwinds and a less mature brass sound, they cannot match up in sound.

I learned a lot arranging my first Bb/F horn book last year, even though I arrange for many bands. My experience is that I wrote the low brass too high at first and there was a nice rich lower voicing available that sounded much better than the way I used to write for G horns. So I revoiced many of the baritone parts as the season went on. The tubas sound wonderful but are not as loud as Contras in G...they sound richer however.

And, I figured that because I can play trumpet as loud as I ever could play the soprano bugle, everyone would be able to do the same thing. That was NOT the case. Although I like the sound of the trumpets, many of these players could not play as loud as bugles. So some range considerations also were made in that regard. Quite possily I wrote too high on this voice as well...$1 to Jeff Mitchell. I didnt think so at first, but outside it was different than inside. I made some adjustments as the season went witrh revoicing some things.

Talent level has a lot to do with how I am arranging this year for the same group. I will not have the trumpets attempt to sound like a drum corps soprano line, but I will have optional parts available, if there are horses to pull an upper part off. The mellos dont have that "drum corps" register available to them either...(upper register above G on the G mello that cuts through the air in any weather conditions). Now that same note is high C, and that is where I believe I need to cut that instrument off for the talent I am arranging for. The days of the mello line playing on trumpet mouthpieces and sounding like the old Skyliners or Cabs mello line (that I loved so much), are now gone. In other years, if I had the cats to play it I would write up to high C or D on a G mello...that cuts through, for sure. I cant do that anymore...So that is another difference in sound and projection capabilities.

I will write the baitone parts lower to sound fatter and richer than bugles. This I believe is a plus to the Bb's versus the G's, but I didnt figure it out right away, even though I write for many bands. I just figured I could write the low voices the same way I used to for G horns in drum corps. Problems started to occur because I was crossing over the mello parts as they were lower than the other way I was used to arranging.

I love the ensemble sound of the Bb/f instruments...but I also love the ensemble sound of the Brigadiers, Empire and Renegades. Again, this makes me think that talent level and brass program have a lot to do with the sound of a great G horn line. The lower level G horn lines didnt sound as great as the higher corps did. And the lower level Bb corps had the same problem. Lack of the higher levels of talent make any corps sound inferior than the corps with a more mature level of performer, and it doesnt matter what instrument they are using.

So people are playing both sets of horns in DCA...lets wish them all a great winter program and hope that every year continues to evolve DCA into a wonderful spectator sport!!!

I wasnt involved in the Crusaders choice to go Bb/F...but I will support it and try to give them the best chance to succeed this year.

Donny

[Fran Haring]

Well anyway I'll bet that string section on the Ellis Tears of Joy album couldn't march a lick!

And try getting that Chicago Symphony trumpet section to do an eight-to-five step. Yikes. b**bs

Fran

[Geneva]

Great thread with many excellent insights. I also agree that Jay (paparazzi) has hit the nail on the head. The approach to the musical performance is what has made drum corps unique from the historical perspective. In the day the priority was to play loud and have presence at the appropriate times (most of the time :) ) and to strive to maintain quality and intonation. Now the priority is to be musically correct at all times and to strive to play loud at the appropriate times (less often :( ), but not if it risks the musicality of the performance.

Drum corps was interesting because it was the "renegade step-child" of the music world (nod to The Renegades for their choice of name). It attempted (not always successfully) to create a musical performance with undeniable impact and a visceral fortitude. This was a more acceptable approach when the activity was comprised primarily of enthusiastic hobbyists and a wide spectrum of individual performance capacities. I think that the evolution of drum corps to its present form was inevitable when the instructors became professional musicians and the average participant entered with a higher degree of musical sophistication.

I think this is the main factor in the drop in the average volume level (though I do not believe that the transition to B flat is a null factor). Certainly, there are corps that still "understand" this historical uniqueness of drum corps with respect to volume and I would give an appreciative nod to Buccaneers, Renegades, Phantom Regiment, Madison Scouts, and Blue Devils as good examples.

I agree with paparazzi that old drum corps was not always pretty, but it certainly was compelling.

[Gmannn]

This thread isn't heading downhill any longer. LOL I'd love to hear more from corps directors, brass arrangers, instructors etc. More please

[Kamarag]

We are trying to hold desperately onto the SOUL of drum corps.

Until 2004 I knew nothing of DCA, I had only worked in DCI -- upon entering I was SO impressed with the vibe of DCA... why?

SOUL.

right on. Ding ding ding. Give Paparazzi a beer. He said what we've all been trying to say.

Yo, Joe? You want SOUL? Check out Carolina Gold in 2006.....ALL TOWER OF POWER, ALL THE TIME!

You won't find a DCI corps with the balls to do THAT...(and it's in G, so Chris will really like it...)

Edited December 8, 2005 by Kamarag

[Donny Drum Corps]

Yes Gold bought the Crusaders G brass last year. And with my friend Chris Bernatos arranging it, I am sure it will be very cool.

Donny

[JoeBas]

For me the difference was minimal. I played a G and a Bb baritone bugle into a friends decibel memter. On the G horn the average read at 120 decibels. On the Bb horn it was 118 decibels. Now I realize our methods were not necessarily scientific, but I seriously doubt that anyone is going to really notice a 2 decibel difference. The human ear just isn't designed to pick up that minute a detail. At that point its just really loud anyway. What it comes down to is instruction and musicianship. A better in tune line doesn't have to play as hard to generate the same loudness as an out of tune line does. The soundwaves are working more in harmonic unison which is more pleasant to the ear. The point is really moot anyway. Bb is here. In 25 years G bugles will be to the players of 2030 what single valve bugles are to us. A nice reminder of what the past was. Our history. Improvements in equipment happen in everything. Imagine what Bobby Jones (the golfer, not Buccs drill designer 2005) would do with the equipment Tiger Woods uses. Its evolution. It happens. Darwinism working in drum corps. Those who don't evolve and change are left behind. Remember when color guard was about equipment work, angles and planes and not about ballet training? Remember when drill moves were symmetrical. What is all this amoebic asymetrical stuff? Its modern drum and bugle corps. It has evolved.

It isn't evolution, when that animal already exists in BAND FORM. If you change from G to Bb you become brass bands, and rightly shouldn't be called drum and bugle corps anymore, VERY GOOD brass bands, but brass bands just the same. It boggles my mind years ago those of us who played in both bands and drum and bugle corps wanted it to be kept seperate entities, and God forbid, if anyone called a soprano bugle a trumpet, or contra bass a tuba. Now you can't tell the difference between a brass band and a corps, even down to the insturments they are playing. If it looks like a rose, and smells like a rose it is a rose, no matter what you call it. So if it looks like a brass band and plays like a brass band it is a brass band, and not a drum corps anymore, not evolution but gene therapy, another words messing with the workings. They even call them TRUMPETS and TUBAS As far as the Tiger Woods analogy goes, apples and oranges, since there have been Bb horns longer than G horns.

[Mick Krackin']

When I got turned on to Gordon Goodwins Big Phat band, I was totally blown away by how freakin good they were, perhaps the best big band I've ever heard. They were ooooo so in tune, so precise and man they can swing. Then I recently found some old Don Ellis, a favorite band from what seems a long time ago. Listen to tunes like Bulgarian Bulge and they have this wild, untamed sound. Man, it was exciting to listen to (over and over again). Sort of like Dizzy and Wynton. Wynton kicks some serious a## but when you hear Dizzy fly, heaven.

So back to drum corps land. I've really wanted to like the latest greatest and leave my "wussy back in my day when leg lift meant something" mentality, but frankly, it leaves me cold. Granted, I'm talking mostly about Jr. corps, which has "evolved". I like the sound of a bugle, better yet, I like the sound of lots of bugles. Wait, lots of bugles playing loud, or heaven forbid, lots and lots of bugles playing loud and sounding like they're having fun doing it. That's why I love drum corps. I like the way a G horn cuts though, even if it is a little messy, drum corps, IMHO, isn't about pretty.

So if progress means corps is going to sacrifice some loud for quality, I can understand the logic. There's no denying what you as educated technicians and master players know to be true. But I fear that in doing so, we'll lose a little bit of soul in the process, a little bit of tradition, a little bit of what makes corps sound different from a band.

My apologies to Mr. Lips if I veared away from his original intent, but in art, aesthetics are just as important as technique. So if it's a B flat line and they play with soul and energy, I gots no problem with that.

I just hope there's always room for a little Don Ellis once in awhile.

Great post! You hit the nail on the head. One interesting thing that came to my mind is that Gordon Goodwin (I heard them at the Midwest Clinic a few years back - HOLY SH*^%!), Don Ellis, Winton & Dizzy all have one thing in common....

None of them ever played on a G Bugle! So, it must not be the bugles.

I doubt anyone would accuse them of not being able to play loud or having enough soul in their music. (If someone does, I'm sorry, they're just flat out wrong)

It's what you put into the mouthpiece, both musically and emotionally. The horn is an amplifier of that. ;>

I taught the Buccaneers one year on G Bugles (2004) and one year on Bb/F's. We had about the same size hornline each year (54 in 04 and 60 in 05) and the talent level was about the same. I know I hear a BIG difference in the quality of sound between the two years.

As for sheer volume, we played Shostakovich's 5th Symphony in 2004 which had some pretty freakin' loud impacts. But I don't think that the impact in Adagio for Strings was any less powerful last year. In fact, I believe that it was even bigger.

Play in tune, in time and achieve a great balance and the key of the horn does not matter. It can be loud or soft and sound great.

[Shadow_7]

Bari/Euph in Bb

A euphonium in Bb? That's like giving a dog a picture of a t-bone and expecting it to be content. Might as well ask nascar drivers to race in gocarts. Or truck pull guys to compete in barbi jeeps. Air Force pilots to fight with R/C planes (oh wait, we actually do that).

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Arranging lower for Bb's, well there you go mimmicing G's. Didn't we used to put the 3rd valve down and play in G? I suppose that if a Bb Euph had a 4th valve, you could push it down and play in F. Of course valve combinations are inherently sharp and otherwise hard to tune.

[Kamarag]

A euphonium in Bb? That's like giving a dog a picture of a t-bone and expecting it to be content. Might as well ask nascar drivers to race in gocarts. Or truck pull guys to compete in barbi jeeps. Air Force pilots to fight with R/C planes (oh wait, we actually do that).

Well, obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. As someone who played euphonium in 2004 (G) and 2005 (Bb), I can tell you that the Bb horn is FAR superior.

It was the same weight and shape. It was the same color. If felt exactly the same to hold.

It was just as loud, it was much better in tune. I'm pretty sure that the other guys who marched both years on euph would agree, as would the brass staff.