Brace yourselves...

[audiodb]

Just for the records, the members of the Cadets were asked after the 2004 season to express their thoughts on which direction the Cadets design team should head. I'm sure you know that but choose to disregard it because it's the Cadets! You sound so uninformed sometimes.

I know this wasn't directed toward me, but it does jog my memory on something.

You know, there was some debate on the Cadets' change of direction in the 2005 pre-season. Many voiced the sentiment that the Cadets' leadership was playing to the judges, and not considering anyone else's opinions (fans or members). Plenty of Cadet supporters were on DCP for this, but no one mentioned this membership survey then. Makes it kind of hard to believe it really took place at that time.

The blurb in the YEA! e-mail a few days back was the first I had heard of it.

[Matt_S]

I have no doubt that member's opinions are varied on the subject. In fact, I would be surprised if they weren't! Every kid in every corps is an individual who can think for themselves, and the result is a wide range of opinions.

What I can't stand, though, is the marginalization of certain opinions, just because of where they come from. It happens all the time around here, most commonly whenever the "borg" label gets tossed around. It happened a year ago, when someone pointed out all the positive responses that amps were getting on the Blue Knights message boards Yes, in the case of this thread those kids mentioned are members of the Cadets, but that doesn't mean we can discount their opinion for it. i mean, c'mon, what's more likely, that these young adults came to the corps and were coerced into voting a certain way, or that they like what Hopkins has done, they agree with his vision, and they chose to be a part of it? Considering all the sacrifices in time, money and effort that these people are investing, I'm going to have to believe it's the latter.

But that goes for all us on DCP, too. I'm a fan of corps like Bluecoats and Blue Knights. I didn't get that way because they forced me into it, I became that way after thinking for myself and coming to my own conclusion that y'know what, I really like their shows. Now if I say "I really love the way Bluecoats used amps last year" am I a 'Coats borg, or am I a thinking, reasoning individual who stated his opinion based upon his own personal preferences? Believe me, it's the latter.

If a kid from the Cadets states that he likes amps, perhaps we should take him at his word. If you (the general you) can't do that, if you chalk it up to bias - or worse, coercion - then don't expect me to take what you have to say seriously, either.

[drums]

I have no doubt that member's opinions are varied on the subject. In fact, I would be surprised if they weren't! Every kid in every corps is an individual who can think for themselves, and the result is a wide range of opinions.

What I can't stand, though, is the marginalization of certain opinions, just because of where they come from. It happens all the time around here, most commonly whenever the "borg" label gets tossed around. It happened a year ago, when someone pointed out all the positive responses that amps were getting on the Blue Knights message boards Yes, in the case of this thread those kids mentioned are members of the Cadets, but that doesn't mean we can discount their opinion for it. i mean, c'mon, what's more likely, that these young adults came to the corps and were coerced into voting a certain way, or that they like what Hopkins has done, they agree with his vision, and they chose to be a part of it? Considering all the sacrifices in time, money and effort that these people are investing, I'm going to have to believe it's the latter.

But that goes for all us on DCP, too. I'm a fan of corps like Bluecoats and Blue Knights. I didn't get that way because they forced me into it, I became that way after thinking for myself and coming to my own conclusion that y'know what, I really like their shows. Now if I say "I really love the way Bluecoats used amps last year" am I a 'Coats borg, or am I a thinking, reasoning individual who stated his opinion based upon his own personal preferences? Believe me, it's the latter.

If a kid from the Cadets states that he likes amps, perhaps we should take him at his word. If you (the general you) can't do that, if you chalk it up to bias - or worse, coercion - then don't expect me to take what you have to say seriously, either.

Well said, you are wise! Good to read some common sense

[Stream of Consciousness]

I have no doubt that member's opinions are varied on the subject. In fact, I would be surprised if they weren't! Every kid in every corps is an individual who can think for themselves, and the result is a wide range of opinions.

What I can't stand, though, is the marginalization of certain opinions, just because of where they come from. It happens all the time around here, most commonly whenever the "borg" label gets tossed around. It happened a year ago, when someone pointed out all the positive responses that amps were getting on the Blue Knights message boards Yes, in the case of this thread those kids mentioned are members of the Cadets, but that doesn't mean we can discount their opinion for it. i mean, c'mon, what's more likely, that these young adults came to the corps and were coerced into voting a certain way, or that they like what Hopkins has done, they agree with his vision, and they chose to be a part of it? Considering all the sacrifices in time, money and effort that these people are investing, I'm going to have to believe it's the latter.

But that goes for all us on DCP, too. I'm a fan of corps like Bluecoats and Blue Knights. I didn't get that way because they forced me into it, I became that way after thinking for myself and coming to my own conclusion that y'know what, I really like their shows. Now if I say "I really love the way Bluecoats used amps last year" am I a 'Coats borg, or am I a thinking, reasoning individual who stated his opinion based upon his own personal preferences? Believe me, it's the latter.

If a kid from the Cadets states that he likes amps, perhaps we should take him at his word. If you (the general you) can't do that, if you chalk it up to bias - or worse, coercion - then don't expect me to take what you have to say seriously, either.

way to reasonable a post.

Well said dude.

Edited March 3, 2006 by Stream of Consciousness

[bawker]

What I can't stand, though, is the marginalization of certain opinions, just because of where they come from. It happens all the time around here, most commonly whenever the "borg" label gets tossed around.

...and it works both ways.

Lots of people like to discount the differing viewpoint as just being a "dino" or "legacy fan from 1975". I've been called a hater, a Hopkins-basher and much worse privately through PM and e-mail, even though I would dare say I'm a lot more open to talking about what changes are going on than some.

The cross section of opinions in corps members (and we have some data to work with, as some current marchers post here) is probably not too different than on DCP overall: some for, some against...some don't care.

So, by the same token, when the answer from those on the other side in these debates is "Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya...", then...well, folks may not want to take that dismissive attitude seriously, either.

Edited March 3, 2006 by bawker

[dbc03]

I know this wasn't directed toward me, but it does jog my memory on something.

You know, there was some debate on the Cadets' change of direction in the 2005 pre-season. Many voiced the sentiment that the Cadets' leadership was playing to the judges, and not considering anyone else's opinions (fans or members). Plenty of Cadet supporters were on DCP for this, but no one mentioned this membership survey then. Makes it kind of hard to believe it really took place at that time.

The blurb in the YEA! e-mail a few days back was the first I had heard of it.

As a member of the 2004 Cadets I can confirm that this survey did in fact take place. I can also confirm that most of the members said they wanted to go back to being the innovators.

[Phansouth]

Innovation is one thing, mutation is another.

I'm not going to pass judgement on a terrible recording mae in February, but man, does this have a LONG way to go. I don't think it was in the corps' best interest to post that recording.

[dbc03]

Innovation is one thing, mutation is another.

I'm not going to pass judgement on a terrible recording mae in February, but man, does this have a LONG way to go. I don't think it was in the corps' best interest to post that recording.

Everyone has a LONG way to go in February.

I'm not sure what you mean by it not being in their best interests to post that recording, but I'm pretty sure competitively speaking that the judges are not going to start deciding placements because of a February recording.

[jwillis35]

I know this wasn't directed toward me, but it does jog my memory on something.

You know, there was some debate on the Cadets' change of direction in the 2005 pre-season. Many voiced the sentiment that the Cadets' leadership was playing to the judges, and not considering anyone else's opinions (fans or members). Plenty of Cadet supporters were on DCP for this, but no one mentioned this membership survey then. Makes it kind of hard to believe it really took place at that time.

The blurb in the YEA! e-mail a few days back was the first I had heard of it.

Why would the Cadets officially say that they asked their members what they were interested in if they didn't? What do they gain from this, especially when many of their 2005 members are online and can easily say "hey, we were not asked?"

The bottom line (and flat out FACT) is that the members of the 2005 corps have clearly stated that they were asked their opinions about which direction the corps should go in. Perhaps we only found out after the fact, but then again I don't think it was reported when it first happened. It doesn't have to be reported. This was something between the members, staff, and administration. I didn't hear about it until the day of Finals when I listened to the DCI Season Pass interview of George Hopkins.

Not every young musician today cares for the purist/traditionalist beliefs in drum corps (whatever those happen to be). And they don't have to care.

For the most part, many of today's young musicians marching drum corps, or considering it, have grown up under a very different cultural climate. Their definition of marching band and drum corps is already blurry, and whether they are up on their history or not will have a lot to do with their beliefs. But the cultural climate and their musical upbringing has even more to do with it. You can't change that, yet these are the youth who are, and will be, the future of drum corps. DCI has never had a rule stating that there was only one way to think of how the activity should be presented, or what the definition of the acitivity is.

People are going to propose things. It just happens because we all think differently about this. At some point those proposals are going to have an affect on the activity (and they have). For good or bad, and a little of both, this is the American way...the democratic way.

I totally understand why the traditionlists are upset. And they have a right to complain and voice their opinions. And I enjoy reading them. But what I don't understand is how some of them assume that YEA and Hopkins are to be blamed for all of this. Yes, I understand that he runs a powerful organization, and that he proposes many ideas to the DCI Directors, and that he can be controversial, but others must vote on his proposals. This last one passed unanimously. And I don't buy this who "well everyone else went along with it so they would not be left behind in terms of competitive status." Sorry, not buying this at all.

The fact is that a corps can be top 12 and not use amps. They can be top 12 and not use amped vocals. They can be top 12 and still play G bugles (2 or 3 valve). And don't tell me they couldn't. If Star of Indiana 1991 walked on the field this very day they would still be a top 5 corps. I don't care what instruments you play, if you play them that well you are in. If Phantom Regiment 1989 walked on the field today they would still be top 7 or higher, and I would guess that their music scores would be rather high. This whole notion that others have adopted amps and vocals, and what not, in order to stay competitive is foolish. If they are using the equipment, it's because they wanted to in the first place (or perhaps they are experimenting). And there is nothing wrong with that.

Jonathan

[Phansouth]

Everyone has a LONG way to go in February.

I'm not sure what you mean by it not being in their best interests to post that recording, but I'm pretty sure competitively speaking that the judges are not going to start deciding placements because of a February recording.

I'm not talking about judges, I'm talking about the DC community. The "experimental stages" of a show should be kept within the corps hall walls,IMO.

All the other soundbites have been tremendous-- like a another DCI ring is already in the bag. THis last recording did not come close to the previous offerings.