Playing G bugles, no amps, no electronics = competitive disadvantage?

[Tekneek]

I don't even know if this would be possible at this point (possibility of scarce G bugles to field an open class corps), but would a new corps that insisted on marching the old bugles and never using any amplification/electronic devices be at a competitive disadvantage in your opinion?

To give a frame of reference, I am picturing a 1990 era corps hitting the field in 2006. I assume, only from what I have read over the past several years (I have not been to a show since 2000), that nobody marches Gs anymore. I also do not know if any corps has made it a rule that they will not use amps/electronics. I am just wondering if DCP forum members think "old school" (1990 as old school in this case) would have a hard time competing with today's corps that exploit the rule changes.

Edited May 21, 2006 by Tekneek

[geluf]

There are corps that still march G.

Troopers come to mind...although obviously they are not feilding this year.

[JimF-LowBari]

Year or so ago I asked what would happen if a corps came out with a "pre-pit" style show. IOW, all percussion equipment would be carried or just not used. Response I got back from many was that the pit is now included in the scores so no pit means an automatic lower score.

Sounds like we might be on the same wavelength as what is going on with amps now is like the beginning of the pit era. When pits started being used they were optional and just a place to park the tymps and bells. Also a way to free up three drummers as it takes one tymps player now and before you had four playing (seperate) tymps.

Wonder if 10-15 years from now there will be a item on the score sheets for amp use like what happened with the pit.

[dcpguy1111]

I don't know where this myth came from that corps who use G horns will be put at a competetive disadvantage. 2000 is a great example. G horns didn't stop SCV from having a great hornline and being competetive, G horns didn't keep Boston from reaching it's highest placement. And what about the Cavaliers!? They tied with the Cadets, and beat BD who using Bb that year.

Of course people on this board will tell you that corps who use G horns are going to get screwed by the judges, which is pretty much poppycock.

[Phantom&Phitch]

G horns didn't keep Boston from reaching it's highest placement.

actually... despite getting 6th in brass on finals night, they came in 9th the other two... so i wouldnt really contribute their 5th place to their brass.

[vferrera]

You can still buy G bugles from Dynasty. However, using them would be the kiss of death. G bugles sound different than Bb. That makes it harder for the judges to compare different lines. In a competitive environment, they need to decide which one sounds "better." There is no question that the Bb's produce a darker sound and that they play better in tune. So, 9 times out of 10, judges are going to say the Bb line sounds better. In terms of points, playing on G horns probably translates into a 0.5 to 1.0 point drop in the total score.

It's the same for any innovation. It either hurts you or helps you. If it hurts, corps will drop it almost immediately. Think of the trombonium bugles that lasted roughly one season. If it helps, then eventually everyone has to use it. It places too much demand on the judges to compare G v. Bb lines or amplified v. unamplified pits. It's easier for them just to decide that one is inherently superior and bias their scores accordingly.

We are now going into the third season of singing/narration. So far, the jury is out. But at some point the judges will clearly indicate whether it is a plus or minus. The following season either all corps will have it or none will.

[Phantom&Phitch]

In terms of points, playing on G horns probably translates into a 0.5 to 1.0 point drop in the total score.

you do know that for a corps score to drop 1 point, they would have to lose 2 points in the music captions, right? you really think that Gs would do that to/for a corps?

[vferrera]

you do know that for a corps score to drop 1 point, they would have to lose 2 points in the music captions, right? you really think that Gs would do that to/for a corps?

I'm assuming the effect would be distributed across music GE, brass perf, and ensemble music. So, yeah, 0.5 - 1.0 overall sounds about right.

[Phantom&Phitch]

I'm assuming the effect would be distributed across music GE, brass perf, and ensemble music. So, yeah, 0.5 - 1.0 overall sounds about right.

ok, but i disagree.

[vferrera]

ok, but i disagree.

You don't think there would be an effect, or you don't think it would be that much?

Think about it. For there to be no effect of G v. Bb, one of the following things has to happen:

1. Judges say, "I can't hear any difference" This would be like saying "I'm not qualified to judge." Even musical idiots like me can tell the difference.

2. Judges say, "I can hear a difference in tone color and intonation, but I'm not going to add or deduct points for it." This cannot happen. There are explicit criteria on the sheets. If you can discriminate a difference in these criteria, then you must rate one better than the other. Corps A cannot be "differently" in tune than Corps B without one being better than the other.

9 times out of 10, the Bb line is going to be better in tune. They will also have better tone quality, balance and blend. That all adds up to about 0.5 to 1.0 points.

Don't get me wrong, I actually prefer the spine-tingling brilliance and volume of G horns. But those are not explicit criteria on the sheets. Musicality is an explicit criterion and it's hard to deny that the Bb's are more musical.