Playing G bugles, no amps, no electronics = competitive disadvantage?

[vferrera]

With Westshoremen Alumni the people playing Bb had the wierd ###ed key. Think the Gs had no sharps or flats and the Bb players had three sharps and bunch of sharps all over the sheet music. :sshh:

Man, was I glad I was playing a G Bari.....

If the G horns were playing in the key of C maj, then the Bb's would have to transpose down a minor third, putting them in A maj, which has 3 sharps (C#, F#, G#). That's not too bad except that G# is a hard note to tune on any horn.

[vferrera]

Vince, I ment what I said as tongue-in-cheek. How many of the posters have stated that judges AREN'T suppose to compare corps during judging?

I sorta figured, but still, it's better not to try to compare all the corps head-to-head. It makes your brain hurt.

[MikeM]

Intonation better on Bb's? Overall yes, but its just as easy to blow out of tune.

Listen to the end of 2004 Cavies. That mello note about 10 seconds from the end blows so flat it hurts.

I personally feel that a G line should get demand points because it's harder to keep them in tune. It can be done tho. :)

And, 2000 Cavies were on G bugles.

If you wanna hear Bb's and G's playing nice together, listen to the combined Caballeros (Bb) and Caballeros Alumni (G) play Flamenco Cha-Cha (or is it Cha-Cha Flamenco? :P). Granted, a number of people will hold the 3rd valve on the Bb's, but others don't, and its still an awesome sound.

Edited May 22, 2006 by MikeM

[Morgoth Bauglir]

No, Playing G bugles, with no amps, and no electronics would not be a competitive disadvantage. Unless judges are giving out points for simply using what's new, which is another topic entirely.

I will say this though. If a corps did march G Bugles, they would have to spend more time teaching the horn to the players than other corps. Thus that greater skill curve would be a disadvantage. In short, Bb horns are not the advantage. Their ease of use to fresh-out-of-HS band kids is.

[Jeff Ream]

it shouldn't be a disadvantage. if the judges are making it one, i suggest the sheets be examined and a rules congress issue be made of it.

[Chester]

the G horns are larger( longer) and thus require more air and support. So its a bit easier to play the Bb horns. Also, as ya play in other ensembles, you geta sense of relative pitch, knowing what fingering and lip configuration produces what sound.. and switching from Bb ( or BBb in the case of us tuba/sousaphone players) can be a bit weird.

As far as a mixed line.. It can work depending on what yer playing, but the overtone series of the instruments would differ, making for some weird phantom pitches and a loss of richness to the sound.

In the end.. Either can sound good... alldepends on the players.

[spitvalve]

I wonder if anyone else is as crazy as me and would be dumb enough to try and march both Bb & G's in the same corps. Have half the hornline play with G's and the other half play with Bb's.

...just something I thought about that probably won't work

Would this be any more crazy than mixing Bb and F? You folks just keep on forgetting the F mellophones in there. This is not a comparison of G and Bb. It is non-mixed key G and mixed key Bb/F. Orchestras, bands, and brass bands seem to find a way to blend and tune with a laundry-list of different keyed instruments. It's called musicianship.

But I still insist -- and it's all physics -- that an all-same-key line will play in tune better than a mixed-key (Bb/F) line -- all things with the players being equal.

"Okay - trumpets (Bb) and mellos (F)... what is your fingering for Concert Eb, C, D...?"

Hmm... different fingerings... and even with those "perfect tune" trigger slides, horn physics is horn physics.

Some food for thought:

1st Brigade Band, out of Watertown, WI, uses authentic 1860's horns (with modern mouthpieces) and they play... amazingly... pretty much in tune together... because the players know how to LISTEN and ADJUST.

That is my ultimate example of a skilled musician overcoming their horn's shortcomings. If you can get 40 of those creaky over-the shoulder trumpets, tennors, baritones and tubas in Bb and Eb to play in tune, this crap over modern G sops vs. Bb trumpets is getting really old.

EDIT

I see I landed under Chester. Chester knows what he is talking about. Good to see you on the field. Somebody (?) a few months ago discussed the whole topic of interplay of overtones of same key vs. mixed key. And that person (?) discussed how these different interplays contribute to the aural character of different types of ensembles. Brass band - single-key corps - mixed key corps - concert band - orchestra - brass choirs.

Chester will tell you: If he was in a brass quintet and swapped a CC tuba in for his BBb -- you'd likely notice how the overtone interplay of the ensemble changes. Subtle, but it does. I'm not talking about the difference in SOUND (waveform) between a C and Bb tuba -- I'm talking the overtone interplay between horns in the ensemble.

Funny how we get here on DCP. It's the same other places. Suggest to a brass band person that there should be no problem with swapping in an F tenor (and transpose accordingly) for their traditional Eb tenor. You'd get the TRADITION! bit, but also the same issues of changing the character of the sound from overtones.

I had the pleasure of hearing the Madison Reunion Corps during some lessons in tuning and intonation (amazing to me that this one-shot group is devoting so much time to tuning and intonation... of course, so that they will blow our fricken socks off) and it was stunning how almost 120 horns, all in the same key, had moments where the planets aligned, the overtones multiplied and there were odd cross-fade moments where they sounded like 250 horns. Goosebumps. Would be cool to do a spectrum/waveform analysis of what was happening.

So, anyway, the debate should be what it originally was when the rule was passed: Mixed Key vs. Same Key (which happened to be G)

I'd bet if you got rid of the F mellophones and used something in Bb (fluegelhorn or Bb marching French horn) so that ALL of your brass was single key -- in Bb, you'd be back to SOME of the overtone characteristics of all-G lines.

Edited May 23, 2006 by spitvalve

[davidfromthepit]

as far as amped pit goes...i believe there is NO doubt it would be a disadvantage...i personally experienced the disadvantage last year...if your pit cant "reach the box"...you are gonna get docked...because everyone with amps can.....kind of ironic that the percussion 2 judge(in general focused more on pit than percussion 1) is up in the box...and the percussion 1 judge is on the field (usually more focused on battery than the percussion 2 judge)

[spitvalve]

... In short, Bb horns are not the advantage. Their ease of use to fresh-out-of-HS band kids is.

I'll admit that going between a G horn for camp weekends and Bb/F for the week at school can mess with the ear/mind/chop connections.

Say I play all weekend on a G horn, then Monday night have community band back on Bb. First minute or so the ears/mind/fingers/chops say, "Whoa, what's going on here, dude?" A minute or two of scales and intervals and you adjust back. You know what it's like, if you ever played both G and band instruments.

But I know some kids were scared by the "mysterious" G horns. But that mystique of G also added to the mystique of corps.

[Jeff Ream]

as far as amped pit goes...i believe there is NO doubt it would be a disadvantage...i personally experienced the disadvantage last year...if your pit cant "reach the box"...you are gonna get docked...because everyone with amps can.....kind of ironic that the percussion 2 judge(in general focused more on pit than percussion 1) is up in the box...and the percussion 1 judge is on the field (usually more focused on battery than the percussion 2 judge)

which is hysterical, cause we have pointed out many pits over the years you needed no amps to hear upstairs.