Playing G bugles, no amps, no electronics = competitive disadvantage?

[Phantom&Phitch]

You don't think there would be an effect, or you don't think it would be that much?

not that big of a difference in score was what i was disagreeing with...i should have been more clear

Think about it. For there to be no effect of G v. Bb, one of the following things has to happen:

1. Judges say, "I can't hear any difference" This would be like saying "I'm not qualified to judge." Even musical idiots like me can tell the difference.

its not so much the difference between sounds though that the judges would point out, they know they Gs abd Bbs natually sound different. what they would point out is the difference in intonation, blend, etc...

2. Judges say, "I can hear a difference in tone color and intonation, but I'm not going to add or deduct points for it." This cannot happen. There are explicit criteria on the sheets. If you can discriminate a difference in these criteria, then you must rate one better than the other. Corps A cannot be "differently" in tune than Corps B without one being better than the other.

while intonation is definately not a question, i feel tone color is. look at the corps today, each has a different sound and strives for a different type of tone. example: gino's trumpet lines. they sound nothing like the cavaliers or BDs trupmet lines, but does that make them wrong? no, it just makes them different. so many people on here act as though there is 1 correct sound but there isnt.

[vferrera]

while intonation is definately not a question, i feel tone color is. look at the corps today, each has a different sound and strives for a different type of tone. example: gino's trumpet lines. they sound nothing like the cavaliers or BDs trupmet lines, but does that make them wrong? no, it just makes them different. so many people on here act as though there is 1 correct sound but there isnt.

As a matter of personal preference, I agree with you. I like to hear different sound qualities associated with different styles of music. Brighter for jazz, darker for symphonic pieces. However, I've been told by experts (i.e. music educators, or people who claim to be) that this just reflects my musical naivete. In fact, there is only one "characteristic" tone quality that all brass players must strive to produce. Anything else is just poor musicianship. (Vee haf vays uf making you komply, ja?)

[madscout96]

I don't know where this myth came from that corps who use G horns will be put at a competetive disadvantage. 2000 is a great example. G horns didn't stop SCV from having a great hornline and being competetive, G horns didn't keep Boston from reaching it's highest placement. And what about the Cavaliers!? They tied with the Cadets, and beat BD who using Bb that year.

Of course people on this board will tell you that corps who use G horns are going to get screwed by the judges, which is pretty much poppycock.

2000 is not a good example at all because it was only the first year that corps used Bb's. The only hornlines I can think of that used them then were Cadets, BD, and I thought I remember Cavaliers using them as well (despite Fiedler having voted against them).

In 2006 any corps that does use G's instead of Bb's is absolutely at a competetive disadvantage. Same thing with amps, for small percussion and mallets, anyway. Voices I don't think so. If you don't use everything you have at your disposal, judges will ask why not. And they'll say "if you do this and use that, you'll get a better score". I don't like amps and could do without them, but corps that don't use them will not get as much consideration from judges as those who do.

[vferrera]

2000 is not a good example at all because it was only the first year that corps used Bb's. The only hornlines I can think of that used them then were Cadets, BD, and I thought I remember Cavaliers using them as well (despite Fiedler having voted against them).

In 2000, I'm pretty sure Cavaliers were still on G. Only Cadets and BD had Bb's. Cadets had Yamaha, while BD had Dynasty. I remember thinking that Cadets actually sounded pretty good, but BD sounded terrible. This was either a difference in the horns or in the arrangements they were playing. I think Cadets music uses a lot of open intervals and simple chords. These sounds good on Bb's because the upper partials ring more, making up for the loss of volume. BD's charts generally have a lot more dense chords, with augmented/diminished intervals. Without the volume and brilliance of the G horns, these tend to sound muddier.

[Phantom&Phitch]

However, I've been told by experts (i.e. music educators, or people who claim to be) that this just reflects my musical naivete. In fact, there is only one "characteristic" tone quality that all brass players must strive to produce. Anything else is just poor musicianship.

if this were true then there would only be 1 viable choice for instrumentation. there wouldnt be so many options, like Gs, Bbs, etc... but because there are those options it shows that there are more than 1 sounds that are acceptable.

[vferrera]

if this were true then there would only be 1 viable choice for instrumentation. there wouldnt be so many options, like Gs, Bbs, etc... but because there are those options it shows that there are more than 1 sounds that are acceptable.

That's what I used to think. After all, you can buy trumpets with in different keys, with different bores, bells sizes, etc. But, again, I've been told by "experts" that "good players sound the same regardless of the instrument." I agree that this is baffling, but there you go.

[audiodb]

Oh my, where to start? Unfortunately, I don't have all week to dispel all the mythology in your posts here, so I'll have to pick a few highlights only.

9 times out of 10, the Bb line is going to be better in tune.

This is becoming a popular myth these days. My observations have been different, as I have been able to view each of these corps several times over the course of each season throughout the any-key transition. Frankly, it took all this time just to get back to where we were in 1999 regarding intonation. Every single brass maker's drum corps debut was embarrassingly out-of-tune.

They will also have better tone quality, balance and blend.

Really? They just automatically will? Could have fooled me.

Balance - Not to single anyone out, but in all the 30 different years I've observed Glassmen hornlines, the worst imbalance I ever heard from them was in their first year playing the Bbs. I have also been treated to the disappearance of the contra lines of the Blue Devils in their early Bb years, and the only DCI finalist with no audible low brass - 2003 Magic (though the Cadets almost achieved the same last year).

The only blend "improvements" I've heard have come as a by-product of the overall reduction in volume level. No one sticks out because no one is ever playing loud.

Tone quality - there have been some good Bb lines. There have been some good G lines. Good tone can be produced on either horn. I can't say there is an inherent advantage to either in that category.

That all adds up to about 0.5 to 1.0 points.

How can you quantify your bias perception categorically, without even taking into account the skill of the performers and the results of their instruction? Or, for that matter, the glaringly obvious differences between instrument manufacturers?

I guess this quote sums it up best:

Don't get me wrong, I actually prefer the spine-tingling brilliance and volume of G horns. But those are not explicit criteria on the sheets. Musicality is an explicit criterion and it's hard to deny that the Bb's are more musical.

First of all, horns are not musical - musicians are.

Secondly (and more importantly), dynamic range is part of musicality. At least, that's what every music teacher I ever had told me.

[Tekneek]

The only blend "improvements" I've heard have come as a by-product of the overall reduction in volume level. No one sticks out because no one is ever playing loud.

I suppose the overall reduction in volume was an unintended side effect of the change? One of the things that made me a fan was the volume/power.

[Toby]

I suppose the overall reduction in volume was an unintended side effect of the change? One of the things that made me a fan was the volume/power.

w/Stp:

(sans stupid)

I'd like to hear Madison try and play their opener from 89 on Bb. *shrug*

[NR_Ohiobando]

I wonder if anyone else is as crazy as me and would be dumb enough to try and march both Bb & G's in the same corps. Have half the hornline play with G's and the other half play with Bb's.

...just something I thought about that probably won't work