What's with all the negativity?

[MikeD]

And, like I said earlier, we're in the first couple of years of corps using equipment that the petition signing crowd protested. Even the most vehement of the Cadets/Hopkins haters who signed that petition (or didn't, or couldn't) might just find enough merit in DCI shows to stick around. It'll take some time to figure it all out one way or the other, I should think. What you guys are offering is speculation...I'im just doing the same here. And I couldn't care less if DCI got rid of amps etc.

BTW...the second year's petition had a few hundred signatures. There were some kibitzers who signed, but of the valid signatures...just a few hundred.

[90'sMelloguy]

There has been a lot of talk about attendance being down at DCI shows and DCI losing money from people being ###### about the changes Amps or whatever).... but I think we are missing something and that is how many fans DCI is picking up

Now I dont have any official numbers and even if I did i would not want to go through the data (I do enough research as it is) so my opinions are clearly based on what I see....and I am wrong often so with that being sad here is my observation:

10 years ago when I got into teaching marching bands and doing corps most kids did not know what DCI was. Sure if they went to a school with a pretty good program they might have seen the tapes of shows once or twice but I would say that the majority could not name who won DCI last year (or any year). NOW every kid knows what DCI is and many of them at the tender age of fourteen already have a favorite corps that they hope to march one day. By watching finals the past few years I have noticed that the stadiums have not been as full as I remember them being when I marched. Maybe it was becuase of the venue, or maybe my perception is all wrong or something elsel but it looks like attendance is down at finals. HOWEVER, I have noticed that attendance at smaller shows has been up. Even more importantly, I have been to watch DCI in the theatres and it is jammed packed with kids. I talked to the manager of the theater when I was on a bathroom break and he told me that the DCI shows have been sell out every time. I live in a community where bands in general are not that big but still the theater shows are sold out...makes me wonder what kind of money DCI brings in across the nation through those theater shows....

So, long story short I think DCI has done a great job marketing to the younger audience and I would be willing to bet that they are making more money than ever...the byproduct of targetng a younger audience (like DCI obviously is) is you often leave the older audience behind.

Anyway...Just a thought. I could be wrong..........

[kusankusho]

All I'm trying to say is that if money flow is affected enough by the anti-Cadets borg, DCI will know. If it's as great as you guys make it out to be, they'll have to make some changes. The first couple of years, even the most vehement of the Cadets haters might just find enough merit in DCI shows to stick around. It'll take some time to figure it all out one way or the other, I should think. What you guys are offering is speculation...I'im just doing the same here. And I couldn't care less if DCI got rid of amps etc.

Hi Lance.

If the anti-Cadets borg thing is pointed at me or others like me then you are off-target. I've said before that I'm not anti-Cadets, but I am opposed to what the Cadets staff and mnagement are doing and seem bent on continuing to do. My problem is with the direction, not the corps itself - a fine line of distinction I realize, but real none the less.

If next year, Cadets yank all the narration and singing and do what they are capable of, I'll be on my feet for them and I guarantee every so-called "Cadet Hater" will do the same. If in that same year SCV starts singing and narrating - as much as I love SCV (see my sig) - I'm out in the souvie booths. The issue isn't any one corps it's the amping. It just happens that it's the Cadets that are in the forefront of amping and other new directions that I can't get along with right now.

Jim

Edited July 8, 2006 by kusankusho

[kusankusho]

Costs are up for everything...esp fuel. And...local shows set their own prices, not DCI.

Just because DCI did not release any info on attendance doesn't mean it was down; it just means they did not release the info. It's their business anyway...not mine or yours.

If attendance was demonstrably higher it would be a sign that amps are popular though, wouldn't it? And why would it not be our business either way - is this secret information? Every corporation in the world has to announce their annual profit/loss.

Looking around the stands is not a good indicator of profits. How many in the seats are staff or corps members that payed zip to get in? Members, staff and support staff around a div 1 corps comes to what, 150? 10 corps or so don't make finals, that's around 1,500 in the stands wearing bracelets and not paying. Now add in the 30 or so div 2 and 3 corps. Div 2 maybe averages around 120 per corps, Div 3 might average around 80. Do the math and there is a lot of "crowd" that brought in no money at all for DCI in ticket sales.

[GMichael1230]

Hi Lance.

If the anti-Cadets borg thing is pointed at me or others like me then you are off-target. I've said before that I'm not anti-Cadets, but I am opposed to what the Cadets staff and mnagement are doing and seem bent on continuing to do. My problem is with the direction, not the corps itself - a fine line of distinction I realize, but real none the less.

If next year, Cadets yank all the narration and singing and do what they are capable of, I'll be on my feet for them and I guarantee every so-called "Cadet Hater" will do the same. If in that same year SCV starts singing and narrating - as much as I love SCV (see my sig) - I'm out in the souvie booths. The issue isn't any one corps it's the amping. It just happens that it's the Cadets that are in the forefront of amping and other new directions that I can't get along with right now.

Jim

~G~

[Lance]

Okay, I'll call it the Anti-Hopkins Borg. If you're part of the group I was talking about, it's pretty obvious. Just as obvious as the Cadets Borg. The comments about the cadets and hopkins are pretty patented on both sides of the spectrum. And like I've said in the my last 3 posts in this thread, if the impact of the anti-hopkins borg dissastisfaction is great enough, things will have to change.

[victrussell]

Nikk, at no time did i say you started it. but, here's my issue...you left RAMD because YOU claimed to be above it. and yeah, i got a temper too, but if you look in recent years, my posting style is DRASTICALLY different in tone than it was.

sure i get attacked. and ya know what i do 80% of the time anymore...i laugh at em.

why?

cause mocking their stupidity gets them reported and then i get left alone.

I have written very few posts this year. But, when I read a post wherein a person who calls himself a teacher brags about hunting down a student who expressed opinions out of school that the self-identified teacher did not like, that was too much for me. It is one thing for posters on this forum to try to suppress or belittle other opinions, but I think it is reprehensible for a teacher to do to a student what the self-identified teacher stated he did to his student. As a lawyer and a life-long member of the ACLU, I felt compelled to express my opinion on this matter and I did.

Vic Russell

[90'sMelloguy]

I have written very few posts this year. But, when I read a post wherein a person who calls himself a teacher brags about hunting down a student who expressed opinions out of school that the self-identified teacher did not like, that was too much for me. It is one thing for posters on this forum to try to suppress or belittle other opinions, but I think it is reprehensible for a teacher to do to a student what the self-identified teacher stated he did to his student. As a lawyer and a life-long member of the ACLU, I felt compelled to express my opinion on this matter and I did.

Vic Russell

There is a difference between expressing a negetive opinion and anonymously ranting. Should all have the right to express our opinion; YES! We should have the right to shout whatever we want at the top of our lungs, but we should also be responsible for what we are asying if someone were to hear/read it. As a self-identified lawyer I am sure you are familiar with the terms slander and libel, right? If this kid was saying things that were not true about Nikk than Nikk has just the same right to confront him and defend himself. Can he physically threaten and intimidate him: NO. Can he change his grade for stating his opinion: NO. Can he be arrestted for stating his opinion: obviosly not. But Nikk has just as much of a right to defend himself as that kid does to anonymously rant..... As a self-identified lawyer I figured you would know that.

[jwillis35]

Cadets fans need to accept the fact that when your director is as outspoken as he is (and he is allowed to be this way) that people will either agree or disagree with the direction he seems to favor. GH is the most open, up front director out there. He posts his blog, he contributes here some, and he has been forward thinking on many issues, and has proposed many debatable topics at the Directors meetings. But not all of these things are favorable depending on which side of the tracks you sit. Regardless of the directors vote on amps and voice, or the fact that other directors have favored many of these proposals, the bottom line is that GH brings a certain love/hate view to the Cadets.

Couple this with the fact that they have had major problems with the amps and voice since hitting the field with them last summer. Sure, other corps have as well, and voice and singing have already been done (Crown & BD to name a couple), but this year's Cadets production takes it to a new level, and there have been some major problems with their setup and their ability to get it right. There was a major flaw last night during the build toward the end of the ballad, and it was WAY TOO LOUD! These aren't easy problems to fix because live sound is a BIG DEAL. Ask anyone in that business. The kind of production the Cadets want to do can only really be done with true staging, lighting, effects, and a REAL sound system (something in the $50,000 to $100,000 range).

Now, don't get me wrong, I do like their show. I think it's neat, fun, full of amazing grooves, one of the best percussion features I have ever seen, and some kick butt brass and guard as well. But what they are trying is difficult to do, and at some point we have to ask this: Can every corps do this? Is this too expensive? Have we gone too far? Is it unfair to the competition if one corps, or 2 or 3, can afford this monstrous setup, while the rest suffer from lack of GE for not going into bankruptcy?

I don't have the answers to these questions. Perhaps if DCI uses a large setup for which all corps can use this technology (and therefore the investment is made by the corps and DCI for the benefit of all), then this could work. Let's face it, what I saw from the Cadets last night was Broadway on a football field. We have always thought of ourselves, to some extent, as Broadway on the field, but they are simply taking it to the next level. Even some of the things the guard and brass are doing together are literally circus-like stunts, with peple jumping off platforms, doing flips, etc., and this stuff gets big wows from the crowd. It is fun to watch because I love Broadway. But what are the chances we can effectively afford that as an activity and still keep it competitive? Many questions to answer.

Of course, for anti-ampers, etc., the mission is one of keeping drum corps as pure as possible. And they realize that some things must change (bugles to brass, pit, guard, uniforms, styles, etc.), but their fight is an honorable one, and I do respect that.

As for attentance, there is no way to know if we have more or less people coming to shows unless DCI posts a report from the last 20 or so years. There is no way drum corps today can compete with drum corps from the 30s to the 60s. In those days you had 100's of corps, sometimes in just one state. You had corps that were largely neighborhood affiliated, church related, city related, or those that were part of scout and education organizations. More corps = bigger shows = more fans. More shows = more fans. But things changed that none of us could stop, most notably the inclusion of music in the schools and the advancement of the modern high school marching and concert band. I would say that from 1972 to now, DCI has had relatively good consistency in numbers. Some years are better than others. Montreal was an exception, as none of the championships even come close to that. Not even Madison 1992 or Buffalo 1990. With finals still drawing a healthy 22,000 to 25,000 people, that is a good number and a lot of people. And we do have great regionals today that are running in larger venues and attracting 8,000 to 14,000 people. So I still see a lot of good, and in general I see many new fans and old ones still getting a thrill out of corps. We have also seen a growth of new corps in Ohio and California, and elsewhere, and the DCA circuit is growing and continuing to push entertainment and a more pure approach to DCI, and that bodes well for fans that prefer that kind of entertainment.

This is not to say that DCI does not have its share of problems. It does, and many of these issues will continue to be addressed. Despite what people think, there are amazing people working for DCI and they desire to improve the activity. They want the fan to have the best expereince possible.

Jonathan

[JMS0527]

Perhaps if DCI uses a large setup for which all corps can use this technology (and therefore the investment is made by the corps and DCI for the benefit of all), then this could work.

I responded with this before, but I'm going to again....I'm against this idea

Hopkins asked for this possibility...Hopkins can deal with all of the logistics regarding such...

I have no empathy whatsoever regarding the ridiculously long setup time and the difficulties entailed in trying to mix the amplification to an even slightly acceptable level...