Cavalier dominance 2000-Present

[Fiedler]

Fielder: Thanks for the reply. As I stated, I am not making a dig at the kids marching, just merely seeking the numbers you gave me, they disprove my theory. Times have changed drastically since you and I marched. Remember when the kids in the corps were mainly from the same area as the corps itself? My point about jumping to 150 remains though. That is going to nothing more than take away from the smaller corps. Pretty soon the only corps left will be the top 12.

84skyrydr,

Let's do the math.....I think you might be surprised, I know I was.

At the January BOD meeting in Atlanta - just for snicks - Dan Acheson ran down the list of every DCI Division 1 corps and asked them how many members they had in 2006. With - I believe - three exceptions, they all answered 135. We all sat there in amazement. I'm not sure everyone knew that nearly all the Div I corps had 135 members (I personally thought, from reading DCP and casual conversation that no one except maybe the top 6-8 corps were full...all of our eyes were opened wide).

If all corps gave their audition numbers to DCI (19-20 corps did hand them over this year and the number was about 6800 students), more than 7500 kids would have auditioned for corps. Let's say 2000 of those kids were repeats, that's still 5500 kids. 22 FULL Div 1 corps at 135 is 2970 kids.....make it 150 in each, that's 330 MORE kids......that still creates 2200 kids "left over" as it were.

5500 - 2970 = 2530, 2530 - 330 = 2200

Why aren't all the Div I corps at 135? Not sure, perhaps multiple reasons, maybe: a lack of resources, comfort level at current number, can't draw any more, poor experience - it could be anything.....

Why don't more kids go to Div 2/3 corps, not sure, could be some of the same reasons that they don't fill all the Div I corps - some being the corps decision to stay at whatever number they have chosen, some being the student's decision. Not all experiences are the same or are what the students are looking for OR - more importantly - what the corps want to achieve. Perhaps - JUST PERHAPS - not every 2/3 corps wants to be at their allowable max number, perhaps they can't handle the economics those capacities represent.

Many of the Div I corps encourage students to attempt to audition for other corps. What the kids wind up doing is their decision. You can't force them.

And sometimes, it's the corps' decision, not the students.

Thanks for indulging me....

jeff

[rut-roh]

I'd rather watch a brass line work hard for 11.5 minutes than one work smart for only 8 or 9. That's all I meant.

Yet you brought up the 1995 Cadets, who stood still for nearly half their show. And hey, I love that show. It's one of my all-time favorites. And yeah, they did indeed have some pretty cool moments of simultaneous demand (that is, of course, when they managed to stay on their feet). But in terms of maintaining that level of simultaneous demand for 11.5 minutes, they fell way short. Great show, though. That god for that color guard! They were freaking amazing... :)

[raphael18]

A better example for a non-stop Cadets show might be 97-99 - take your pick. Those were some HARD shows.

As for audtion numbers and encouragement to go to other corps.

I personally know at least one guy that was told by BAC to go march in div 2/3 for a year, and after that he would almost definately have a spot. We marched together for a year, and after that he got into BAC the next season (he didn't end up marching there for various other reasons, but he was in finals none-the-less).

I think Mr. Fiedler is aboslutely correct in stating that it isn't necessarily that there aren't enough potential members out there, but that they are not necessarily interested in the experience offered by div 2/3. It never ceases to amaze me when people that have never marched tell me they are to good for a div 2/3.

[jake_the_hydra]

that was 5 yrs ago though... times have changed a little... i mean, look at Cavies 2003.

look at it?

Look at it how? In relation to Four Corners? As far as difficulty goes?

Cavaliers 2003 is probably the second most difficult Cavaliers show put on the field, after Four Corners.

I really don't know what you're talking about or what point you're even attemping to make.

As far as the "smarter, not harder" thing . . . Well, hey, there's plenty of corps who won't give you multiple hours of floor time every night, good food, and ten minute water/gatorade breaks . . . so feel free to go march at one of those places . . .

[jake_the_hydra]

Well, I'm closer to A-town...

I'd rather watch a brass line work hard for 11.5 minutes than one work smart for only 8 or 9. That's all I meant.

What are you talking about?

[LockePoetic]

I was amazed because i knew i was looking at the champion, based on how well designed and clean the show was, but disgusted at how transparent the show was to me...the predictable effects, long breaks, fast marching with easy lines, small steps with hard parts, breaks for the horn players at just the right time, long pit breaks with simple dances that got the crowd going, and musical phrases for the hornline just long enough to receive credit, but too short to really tire them out.

Again, this is not meant to be a rant (though i see that it is). In reality its what I think is the reason for their success. The staff knows that more is not always better, in fact they know how to do exactly enough. As others have mentioned, most top corps are reluctant to follow their model, and until they do, or find something that works better (which I admittedly am hoping for), the cavaliers will continue their dominance.

Nick,

I recognize that you say that this post is not a knock on the cavaliers, however it seems to me that everything you are disgusted about - "long breaks"; "breaks for the horn players at just the right time"; "musical phrases for the hornline just long enough to receive credit, but too short to really tire them out" - to me, that is good show design. I've already posted on this topic before, but demand without effect is pointless and poor design. And while the box might have been easier than, say, Vanguard 2003, I think they made up demand in Wired and the last piece.

One other reason that this design team is so great, besides the ones that have already been given, is that they learn and adjust from the shows of the previous years. They'll go from years like 2001, where they push the limits of the corps, and then go to 2002 where the demand might not have been quite as high, but the effect was through the roof. Same thing happened from 03 to 04. There was a similar swing from 2005 to 2006, although not in terms of demand, both were pretty high, but in terms of challenging the corps to achieve in areas it previously hadn't (jazz/swing) to reclaiming a familiar identity.

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In answer to the original post, the Cavaliers' financial resources, high retention rates, relatively older members, ability to draw in talented musicians, management strategy, organizational philosophy, rehearsal mentality, free days, consistency and quality of show design, consistency and quality of staff, solid volunteer base, solid fan base, strong alumni ties, the dot system, marching style, international reputation, infuence within the DCI management and community - all of these contribute to a great drum corps.

By themselves, these qualities do not make them dominant or even unique. The fact that they have all happened at the same time in this decade is what separates them from the rest right now - and why they'll continue to be in the top 2 for the next several years. Running down the list of other corps that could challenge them in a consistent way -

Blue Devils are the best bet - the past two years were purely show design and I'm positive they will be in the runnings when they get those kinks fixed out. Organization, staff, members, are fine. It's why they have been so consistent at winning throughout their history.

Cadets - personally, I think they have a philosophy that will be successful occasionally, but at the price of poor retention rates. They will be extremely good every few years, but I don't believe they can be as consistent as far as winning if they keep having the type of high turnover they did this year. I would love to see some statistics comparing retention rates for all these corps. I'm going on heresay for a lot of this unfortunately.

Phantom - members are great, maybe not quite as old or talented as the other three, but extremely enthusiastic and completely buy into the system. The staff is pretty top notch. Show design the past two years has been outstanding. Organizationally - they don't quite have the resources and sustainable management strategy to keep bringing it year after year (finances will always come back to bite you). As always, in my opinion.

Santa Clara and Bluecoats (especially Bluecoats) have been making great strides towards cementing all the aspects of a great, consistent drum corps, as have Crown, but I think they are in another tier at the moment and will not be able to overtly challenge the Cavaliers' dominance for at least another few years.

[Phantom&Phitch]

look at it?

Look at it how? In relation to Four Corners? As far as difficulty goes?

you responded to a poster, saying something to the effects of "judges still give credit for difficulty" and used 4 corners to prove your point. but then i said that things have changed a little, and pointed out cavies 2003 as an example. imo it was harder then 2001, and if "judges still gave credit for difficulty" then it would have done better, especially over Cadets show which wasnt as hard as cavies, but a hell of a lot cleaner.

if you're still stumped, go look at post #72 and then apply your logic to 2003 cavaliers. they would have gotten more credit due to the difficulty and would have had a further spread on Cadets

Cavaliers 2003 is probably the second most difficult Cavaliers show put on the field, after Four Corners.

I really don't know what you're talking about or what point you're even attemping to make.

IMO 2003 seemed more demanding than 2001.

As far as the "smarter, not harder" thing . . . Well, hey, there's plenty of corps who won't give you multiple hours of floor time every night, good food, and ten minute water/gatorade breaks . . . so feel free to go march at one of those places . . .

I was responding to the comment jayzer made about programming. not how the corps runs its tour.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Phantom&Phitch

[Phantom&Phitch]

What are you talking about?

you should really follow the thread a bit better...

but here's a summary...

someone said they noticed how Cavies have a lot of programed breaks and downtime for the brass throughout their shows, like more than other corps...

jayzer, getting defensive, said "work smarter not harder" as a rebuttal to that person

then i said I'd rather hear a brass line work hard for all 11.5 minutes than one work smart for only 8 or 9, meaning i'd rather hear a brass line not have so many programmed breaks, and just have to work themselves harder than the corps with only 8 or 9 minutes of brass playing.

[Michael Boo]

84skyrydr,

Let's do the math.....I think you might be surprised, I know I was.

At the January BOD meeting in Atlanta - just for snicks - Dan Acheson ran down the list of every DCI Division 1 corps and asked them how many members they had in 2006. With - I believe - three exceptions, they all answered 135. We all sat there in amazement. I'm not sure everyone knew that nearly all the Div I corps had 135 members (I personally thought, from reading DCP and casual conversation that no one except maybe the top 6-8 corps were full...all of our eyes were opened wide).

If all corps gave their audition numbers to DCI (19-20 corps did hand them over this year and the number was about 6800 students), more than 7500 kids would have auditioned for corps. Let's say 2000 of those kids were repeats, that's still 5500 kids. 22 FULL Div 1 corps at 135 is 2970 kids.....make it 150 in each, that's 330 MORE kids......that still creates 2200 kids "left over" as it were.

5500 - 2970 = 2530, 2530 - 330 = 2200

Why aren't all the Div I corps at 135? Not sure, perhaps multiple reasons, maybe: a lack of resources, comfort level at current number, can't draw any more, poor experience - it could be anything.....

Why don't more kids go to Div 2/3 corps, not sure, could be some of the same reasons that they don't fill all the Div I corps - some being the corps decision to stay at whatever number they have chosen, some being the student's decision. Not all experiences are the same or are what the students are looking for OR - more importantly - what the corps want to achieve. Perhaps - JUST PERHAPS - not every 2/3 corps wants to be at their allowable max number, perhaps they can't handle the economics those capacities represent.

Many of the Div I corps encourage students to attempt to audition for other corps. What the kids wind up doing is their decision. You can't force them.

And sometimes, it's the corps' decision, not the students.

Thanks for indulging me....

jeff

Jeff:

You're using logic again. Stop it!

[idontwan2know]

There is a very serious elitism about a lot of kids in the activity these days. Many of them come from excellent band programs and seem to regard anything but the top corps as a step down and beneath them. Others have no logical explanation for their attitudes...top 5 or bust, top 12 if they have to, lesser Div. I is only acceptable for one year before Cavies/BD/Phantom, and a Div. II/III corps is absolutely out of the question.

In Florida, you wouldn't believe the number of kids who marched some of the recent editions of Magic that fared very poorly competitively who still look down their noses at a corps like Teal Sound, even to the point of mocking them. Most of the central Florida Magic kids who didn't make Boston are going to sit on their couches this summer because they're too good to march a Div. II corps.

It's mind blowing, and I try to talk sense into some of them, but it rarely penetrates.