How would past champions compare...

[supersop]

Edited: that's twice that I've gone on a 5 paragraph rant in this thread and deleted it.

there's so much intolerance for yesteryear. Take any top 3 corps from any era and give them a modern show to learn (with the modern techniques and modern instruments and modern staff).... and they would pwn all day long. My only argument with any comparison is that adding demand in one area will always affect performance in another. I'm so happy that everyone is head over heels impressed with the modern sound of drum corps. It just proves to me that modern day members aren't being taught how to HEAR a lapse in ensemble sound .. holes in the sound ... individuals sticking out ... poor phrasing.

well crap .. I guess I started ranting again.

Side arguments:

15-25+ years ago there was more emphasis on POWER/Execution/Performance than there is today (and I don't mean... WOW you did that pretty darn well for as hard and fast as you're moving... I mean do it PERFECT and play it PERFECT or you're dead). The judges looked for it and it played a major factor in GE. GE of today is more about symphonic "concert band" type sound and who can jazz run the most while playing. It's no longer about energy or emotion or sizzle. You can't get sizzle today because everything is maxxed out ALL the time. There is now ebb and flow to the shows .. it's just run run run run run diggi dum. Honestly, it's not impressive, it doesn't create a wow factor because there's no contrast and it rarely sounds as good as it should.

If you want a true test of how old school compares to modern ... throw a modern corps back in time and see how they fair. If a show is a championship caliber show, it should hold up in any era regardless of emphasis or judging practices. Maybe that's part of the problem with today's judging and the design of the shows. Drum and Bugle Corps (or whatever symanticality you wish to use) has always been and should always be about POWER/ EXECUTION / Performance. There's alot of dirt being accepted as a superior product these days. I for one don't see any of the 3 staples in most modern drum corps shows.

Cavies would have done really well 15 years ago with the 2006 show. I think they would have been smacked by the percussion and brass judges below 6th strictly based on lack of demand, lack of power and lack of passion. They would have owned on execution and technique (at least for brass). Visual GE would be a massive triumph as well as ensemble ... but Brass and Percussion GE wouldn't come close to the top. So how do you put a number on it? or would the judges have been caught up in the "Magic" of the performance and disregarded their conscience? PR's show .. the first thing every judge in critique would say ... it's too complex, too hard to follow ... dumb it down. Same could be said for every other corps in the top 12 other than Crown and BD.

Go back 30 years to the tick system and Cavies would have been the only corps to make finals.

</rant>

[mrshowfan]

Definately a good read.

Maybe for another topic on another day ---> How would 02 Cavaliers (or more recent corps, perhaps even a 6-12 placed corps)do in 1974 or 1983.

Would they be penalized for pushing the envelope, or how would they fare in a tic environment.

[supersop]

Definately a good read.

Maybe for another topic on another day ---> How would 02 Cavaliers (or more recent corps, perhaps even a 6-12 placed corps)do in 1974 or 1983.

Would they be penalized for pushing the envelope, or how would they fare in a tic environment.

I refer the gentlemen to my prior statement :P

Actually a lower 12 corps success in the prior era would depend on what show you're talking about. Some corps do not fair as well these days because their show is too "simplistic" and not demanding enough to generate the "GE" necessary to advance to the next level. Even though their level of execution and attention to detail might be superior, the show is being held back because of the design elements. That same corps could easily be in the top 5 or even win 1-2 decades ago. It really takes a special corps, with the demands of modern design, to go back in time and execute at the highest level and be successful on the old sheets.

On the other hand ...... Demand = dirt in most cases. So a lower placing corps could have a show that is considered "superior" in design yet is too difficult for the members to perfect. In which case, they would not be successful in yesteryear.

Edited March 21, 2007 by supersop

[GGarrett]

I've seen some of the well made points here, and applaud the good debate/discussions here without the unnecessary mudslinging either way, and I get the concept of the question trying to decide where corp shows from then might place today, and vice versa.

But I agree with the analogies comparing football teams from the sixties or seventies to now... same game, just a whole new way of playing it with modern equipment, smarter plays, more definitive rules, more innovation and of course in the case of drum corps a much different playing field. But it is very likely that those great football teams from the seventies would get creamed by todays teams if you were to pit them head to head.

I stop short of saying "more talent" because had we had the things I mentioned above at our disposal back then, and breakneck speed drill was what we did back then, we probably could have done it if instructed that way, too.

Those corps back pre 1984 or so were what was great in that day, and it can't be compared fairly since the rules, field, equipment, design, arranging, and drill design capabilities (ie: computer designed drills) have all become implemented.

I can remember seeing our drill designers big giant grid sketch pads back in the day...and he had put all the positions in by hand for all the sets. Seems so impossible now!

[PR_ducky]

In my opinion there are 3 DCI eras.

Tic system, a period of 2 or 3 years after tic, and modern.

Pre 84 was tic, 84-86, then 87-now

I still assert that any top show from the late 80s would at the very least make finals now, and any top 3 show would still make top 6.

There is better integration of drill and music as far as design goes, but strictly drill has not gotten any harder, or much better designed since the late 80s.

If you look at the 87 champions, Cadets, their show would still hold up extremely well if they put the exact same thing on the field this coming season.

As would 87 SCV, 88 BD, 91 Star, 93 Regiment.

Design made a HUGE leap between 84 and 87, but since then, very little has changed.

Drill/horns/guard are better integrated to a degree, drill design, and music arrangement has not changed significantly.

Colorguard would be the one area where things have gotten more difficult, but I would also say that todays guards don't execute to the same level as some from the late 80s/early 90s

[jwillis35]

In my opinion there are 3 DCI eras.

Tic system, a period of 2 or 3 years after tic, and modern.

Pre 84 was tic, 84-86, then 87-now

I still assert that any top show from the late 80s would at the very least make finals now, and any top 3 show would still make top 6.

There is better integration of drill and music as far as design goes, but strictly drill has not gotten any harder, or much better designed since the late 80s.

If you look at the 87 champions, Cadets, their show would still hold up extremely well if they put the exact same thing on the field this coming season.

As would 87 SCV, 88 BD, 91 Star, 93 Regiment.

Design made a HUGE leap between 84 and 87, but since then, very little has changed.

Drill/horns/guard are better integrated to a degree, drill design, and music arrangement has not changed significantly.

Colorguard would be the one area where things have gotten more difficult, but I would also say that todays guards don't execute to the same level as some from the late 80s/early 90s

Also some very good points. I don't think I would break the eras down this way, but I see your argument.

To me, you can break drum corps' competitive styles down to 3 eras: 1) Early Military Influence and the Alliance with the VFW and AL, 2) Establishment of DCI and the Tic System, and 3) The Build Up System.

I somewhat disagree with your statement that drill, or visual design, has not gotten much better since the late 80s. If the integration is better then the overall design is better, even if only a little. But I also look at corps like the Cavaliers and their sequencing of events, or layering, that has really changed modern drill writing. From a standpoint of forms and that kind of thing, I agree with you that we are not exactly seeing anything now that we didn't see back then, but how it's achieved now is vastly different.

The musical arrangements have changed too. To me, you got more meat from an arrangement in the 70s and 80s, whereas today you get more effect-oriented color in order to makes things seem harder and for the music to work with the speed of the drill. We get more effect-based writing today, more choppy arrangements and hard-to-follow development, and this is why many have a hard time following some shows. In reality, I don't hear the demand in most of the writing that I used to.

There are some corps today that are performing some very demanding music, but in general I think many corps today just play watered-down arrangements that use a few colorful passages to make you believe that they are really playing fast and difficult music, but the "donut" effect is evident to me. The donut effect, of course, is too many whole notes and half notes and not enough melodic and rhythmic responsibility equally distributed throughout the ensemble. This is one area where the 80s corps would have an advantage, and I guess this would stand to reason, because anytime you make something harder, like visual, you will lose a few notches in another area. Its the rare corps that can do both that often finds themselves in the top 3, and this is the most evident reason why Blue Devils, Cadets, and Cavaliers have done as well as they have over the decades.

Someone asked how the Cavaliers 2002 would fare in 1983 or in the 70s. Well, obviously they would do well. Any current champion would. Whether you take a modern corps back in time or a past corps forward in time the key is to assess how the shows will be judged, and WHO will be doing the judging. The Cavaliers in 1983 would certainly blow people's minds in visual GE and visual EX, and the smooth sound of that horn line would be beautiful as always, but the fans would not be ready for that yet. Garfield's powerful ending to Rocky Point would send them into a frenzy, and the Blue Devils would give them the edge and demand they desire in music. The judges would likely be critical of the Cavaliers' drumline for not playing enough demand and for not playing enough period (when you compare them to what the average drumline of 83 was doing). The judges of 1983 would reward the Cavaliers for all their excellence, but would also likely conclude, rightly or wrongly, that some things must be dirty if they are performing something that demanding visually, and with the drumline not playing enough meat and with the hornlines inability to really crank out the sound, they may place them in 2nd, 3rd. The show would be so out for them to judge, especially on a one time viewing, that they would have a hard time putting it in the winner's circle, even if that is where it belongs. Now, modern judges in 2002 judging the same show know where it belongs, and there interpretation of Garfield 83 or BD 83 would be vastly different. They might say "you're clean, but where is the visual demand?" "Where is the integration?" Although I think it's there.

In either case, the shows that we often discuss here are all good, regardless of era. There is no doubt that each era and its' top corps would do well in any year. The more difficult question is how would the rest of the field fare when displaced by a decade or two? It all depends on who is judging, who is in the stands, what was expected of a corps, and what judging sheets were used.

JW

Edited March 21, 2007 by jwillis35

[kdaddy]

I think a similar question could be asked:

"What is the oldest first place show that could win first place in 2007?"

I think we could only go back as far as SCV/BD 1999, particularly SCV.

[Hrothgar15]

I think a similar question could be asked:

"What is the oldest first place show that could win first place in 2007?"

I think we could only go back as far as SCV/BD 1999, particularly SCV.

Vanguard '89.

[IllianaLancerContra]

Vanguard '89.

I'd like to think you are correct, but I bet they would be dumped today on because they used 2-valve G bugles (as did Star 91 and Garfield 87 for that matter). Plus, their drums were tuned too low.

[PR_ducky]

Vanguard '89.

I doubt that. Nothing against SCV 89, but there are plenty of people who feel they shouldn't have won in 89, much less 07. This has been hashed out pretty good in a thread in the Historical section.

I think mid 90s BD would have a shot. That 94 show was just unstoppable.

Definitely 99 SCV