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Do you only watch shows from the press box? Funny - that's precisely what the amps do. Now that's not even true. Pit sounds pre-2004 ran the gamut of tonalities, and the recordings are the best place to find proof of that due to the advantage most pits enjoy in proximity to the recording mics. We had all those things before. This is simply a cop-out. It was never necessary to bang instruments senselessly, without proper technique. If you can't hear one, use two. If you can't hear two, try three. Balance has always been an issue of choosing the correct number of each instrument voice (until amps came along). Your post shows the press-box mentality that was applied in invoking this change. Because certain subtleties could not be easily heard upstairs, they had to be electronically amplified. Well, guess what? There are many subtleties that can't be easily heard upstairs. Sound clarity deteriorates over distance for a variety of reasons. But never mind that....so that GE judges can hear a single Udu drum, or every one of the 40 mallets, we amplify the pit and in the process submerge all the brass subtleties for the vast majority of the audience - those who are not in the nosebleed seats.

Good point, actually. But when DCI goes belly up in 10 years, all of this will be irrelevant anyway.

I guess I don't really understand what your point is with your "corps don't play the game lose" comment. Someone said this before me, but there are a lot of obvious points when the pit plays more than an accompaniment role. Look at 2005 Phantom. Their show revolved around the pit, and it was an essential character in their show. And isn't the marching technique employed by the horns and drums a type of technique designed so they can max out their ability without injuring themselves (or an "injury free technique")? Look at Jazz running - it's designed so they can travel quickly without injuring their bodies, or their playing chops. As I stated in an earlier post, look at how marching shoes are designed nowadays. They're designed to help the marchers achieve their goal without hurting anyone, just as the amps help the pit players not hurt themselves.

I don't think we sucked that year. Poor show design, sure, but we didn't "suck." Choose your words more carefully next time.

looks like I have a new wallpaper on my laptop. :]

I won't argue your indefensible claim. What I will argue though is that every corps in DCI believes that the negatives of having no amps far outweigh the negatives of having an amp'd pit (and yes I do mean every corps. Unless some group is still going without mics). This also applies to next comment you had about the cop-out. I assume that the staff's of each corps found that it was more advantageous to have a slightly distorted sound (so slightly distorted that I wager that no more than five or ten people at any given show - other than volume from sitting too close - would complain that the sound was distorted) than have their members "bang their instruments senselessly" I would also wager that amplification can greatly reduce the risk of injury. Just as marching shoes have improved, and drum carriers have improved, the use of amplification allows for an alteration in technique that allows the player to play with a more concert-esque, injury-friendly technique. "As if even a momentary tacit from any of their ten 4-mallet-wielding keyboardists would risk disqualification." - It just seems apparent to me that you're simply not a fan of the pit. Sorry if that is a gross misunderstanding And obviously this is my opinion, as is most of what we are both saying, but I find that even without the pit "blaring" at me from the front several rows, sitting in front doesn't give me quite the same effect as when I'm sitting higher up. Given that every member is told to "point their bells to the box", I find that I get a better, more balanced sound sitting higher up, and that includes even when the pit is playing. Of course, this is what I guess one could consider "my cup of tea."

Nice selection of an example HB !! One of my best memories in DCA was watching that show from the back side in Hershey..I still went nuts and I WAS ON THE BACK SIDE OF THE FIELD !! Your point of excellence before the advent of speed-merchant drills and 3 valves/any-key brass etc. is SPOT ON baby!! Pat

the way judging has gone lately, fast marching, props, and esoteric music have been the "safe" way to go...amps, narration...guitars...it's obvious by some of the crap that's been put out that it's not penalizing corps that use the "new, evolving" items of drum corps in a less than satisfactory or pleasing manner. (hissing, pops, trite sophomoric narration, over volumed pits, malfunctions, doubling of brass parts, etc.) the only true way to raise risk would be to actually play notes while marching fast...or maybe playing a rich, emotional melody that a higher percentage of the crowd might enjoy...or...dare I say it....drop the electric and the Bb! That, my friends is risk... Answer this question...if BD had performed their 2010 show with no electric, mirrors, and on G bugles, and they performed to the same high level as they actually did at finals, would they have won?

No. And I never said that I want " DCI to be like Rose Bowl Bands ". Do you want Rose Bowl Bands to be like The Stanford Univ. Band ? " I don't want that ".

Yes, and I have been saying since the beginning that it was a move in poor taste for SCV to make if only for that reason. I love Brian Mason's writing and think he has produced some of the most musical percussion books in the activity recently. You can't seriously say that the product he put out in 2009 wasn't great and that the technique and style presented by Gusseck and Ramey wasn't effective. I maintain that the reason SCV did so terrible last season was by not letting its members march WGI and Vanguard. They lost so many vets because of it, and no matter who you are, you can't make a bunch of rookies a top 5 drumline. Sure, this move will help Vanguard jump up a few spots, but was it really necessary? The people marching Vanguard were enjoying marching Vanguard because it had become a pinnacle of percussion innovation and pedagogy in the marching field. Now Vanguard will be backed by Phantom's drumline. Sure, they'll be good and clean, but they'll be run of the mill like many of the other top 12 groups.

Wait, are you saying amps distort the timbre of the instruments? That's odd, that seems counter-productive to what everyone was trying to accomplish when they started using amplification. I also wouldn't call it a cop-out, and I bet the thousand-or-so pit members that have performed since 2004 (including myself) wouldn't respond to that claim too warmly. My pit tech in 2008 was in Phantom '03 and '04 and I recall him talking about how dangerous it was to do that. And this was still when four or five marimbas were playing the same thing, they couldn't be heard with anything but a (leaning on dangerous) technique. There's enough carpal tunnel, and tendonitis in pits now, even with the inclusion of amps. Besides, you could not have had many of the moments that we've had since 2004 without amps. Imagine Crown's ballad in 2008 without amps, there's no way that you would have been able to hear the solo vibraphone with much clarity, especially in large stadiums like Indiana University's that year. You also wouldn't have been able to achieve the same tone quality with any other instrument utilized in drum corps. I would consider their show one of the more memorable of the decade, and without an amp, that moment wouldn't have worked. The entire summer is spent trying to balance the pit volume with brass. And, at least in my experience, the staff takes audience size in to consideration - bigger stadium, more volume - better balance up near the box. That's why they've recently incorporated the rule that the staff member running the soundboard could be on the phone with someone in the audience, because they wanted to find the best balance in the shortest amount of time possible. Besides, when have you ever gone to a show and said "ooh, let's sit closer to the sideline, it's better down there?"

I do apologize for the misleading in my post. I regrettably admit that it was quite the long winded way for me to say this: If it works, then I have no problem with it. I don't think we should assume the implementation of vocals/singing will be bad until we hear it. Once again I apologize for the confusion.

You seem moderately intelligent, so I'll assume that you do indeed know that there is FAR more to a "competent percussion section" or "discovering the beat" than a marching percussion section.

Popular argument on DCP: "If a kid plays a reed instrument or piano and wants to march drum corps they should learn a brass or percussion instrument" except for "If a kid plays tenors and wants to march in Tarpon Springs that sucks and they the director should change his philosophies and field a drum line." While Tarpon Springs' battery philosophy is not one I 100% agree with, I do whole-heartedly believe that the band program there is doing everything right as far as developing a consistently great program. Also, a percussionist in HS (in my opinion) should be well-versed in all aspects of percussion: therefor it should not be 'bad' for percussionists to play mallets or aux. percussion for the field show and not exclusively play a battery instrument.

Yes, I have no doubts that drum corps will continue to impress me with both design and performance quality. Every year at least some corps comes out and does something that blows me away, and I don't see anything to change that in the near future. I honestly think you have to be pretty jaded and stubborn to not be impressed with at least the performances achieved by the top couple of corps. As for what would really impress me, I don't know. To be honest, if I could think of exactly what would impress me it wouldn't impress me too much: I vastly prefer to see things I'd never even thought about before. To be honest, nothing makes me happier as a drum corps fan than seeing things I've never fathomed being performed.

And to get back on topic, we still don't know that singing is going to be a "major" part of The Cadets' 2011 show.

Yep, I guess. And still do. Looking for that emoticon...

I think I'm going to view this Tarpon Springs performance everyone's talking about, making sure to evaluate it as a performance, and again as a performance if I saw it as billed as a "drum corps" show.

I never said anything about movies or cars or art. I highly doubt any software developer you know who develops primarily in Notepad has ever shipped a product to consumers.

IMHO, those aren't good examples of "drill fitting the music" but more "music arranged to fit the drill". There's a big difference. "Drill fitting the music" is more like almost everything that George Zingali designed. Most of his Garfield/Cadets and Star shows are so musical in the drill writing that you can turn the sound off and still "see" the music. Every melody, countermelody, running line, etc. in the music appears in some way on the field. On the contrary, you can turn the sound off while watching most of the Cavies shows from 2000 on and you're still amazed at the formations but have no idea what they might be playing (or if they're playing). In 2010, the best by far for "drill fitting the music" was SCV. I also thought Mark did a pretty good job making BK's drill compliment their music - that was a very under-rewarded show IMHO.

It's all about the kids. Why should how audiences receive performances matter in the slightest? It's not like ticket sales are actually a source of revenue for DCI.

But emotional reactions happen for a mechanistic reason, much of which in this case is based on the acoustic properties of certain sounds and the structure of the musical compositions in which they're heard. Cause and effect. When someone has an emotional reaction to an element of a drum corps show, science and mathematics allow us to very accurately pinpoint why they had that reaction. I've yet to hear a counter-argument. I'm sorry I don't believe in magic.

Science and mathematics have EVERYTHING to do with the structure of sound and music and choreography and why they affect people on an emotional level they way they do.

I highly doubt that's it. I was at semifinals in 2006. I was 17. You know which corps I thought sounded by far the best? The Madison Scouts Alumni Reunion Project. First G hornline I ever heard live.

I think we have a major disconnect here. No one is claiming "science" proves that they're better; however, we can indeed use science to demonstrate why some people prefer them.

OK, maybe "truth" is pushing it too far. "Natural phenomena"...AKA most of what effects our lives. How the world works. Moving on.

Then what is it? I'd say it's done a pretty good job at doing that over the past 500 years or so.

Exactly. When I go to a drum corps show, hearing the sound is only secondary to feeling the sound, physically. Only a couple of corps each year are able to achieve this for me (I'm starting to wonder if most even have that as a goal anymore) but the net effect is so great it keeps me coming back for more. If I'm not involuntarily moved from my seat by well before the end (see signature), I feel like I've wasted my money.

Science is simply a method for discovering the truth. No one will argue that the "science" of the drum corps sound is what matters rather than the sound itself.

So, forums are meant to promote discussion, which is what's happening in this topic. Many systems (such as Google Groups) allow the topic creator to change the topic title at will to more accurately reflect where the discussion has gone. I don't believe Invision PowerBoard has this functionality, but a name is just a name.

Usually hypothetical questions have a purpose. Yours does not. What you suggested does not fall under the commonly accepted definition of "science."

That is not science.

Not sure what you mean.

Brass books of the late '80s and '90s are much more detailed, complex, mature, nuanced, and dare I say it, musical than the brass books of today. Some of those are opinions, others can be verified mathematically. Overall show design, I agree with you, is much more complicated and intricate, but often at the expense of communicative expressiveness to an audience.

I don't think anyone is arguing from just a volume perspective. They're different instruments with a different sound. You could get into the physics of why they sound different, but we'd be wasting our time since there have been countless analyses. Volume characteristics are just one difference (although an important one). The only way to find out whether or not the costs outweigh the benefits is to divide the circuit into two, have the G limitation in effect for one and not the other, and see which is faring better financially after 10 years. Obviously that's not going to happen, but it's interesting to think about nonetheless.

OK...so they're "drum corps instruments" when a corps uses them, yet when they sell those instruments to a marching band, then can I call them "marching band instruments"?

Sounds like you really didn't like their sound. Doesn't it puzzle you, then, that DCI resisted moving away from them for 27 years, going so far as to creating valved G bugles, and G extensions, and 3-valved G bugles, or what-have-you, just to stay with G horns? To maintain a specific, unique sound? It would puzzle me.

On the contrary....I would suggest those phenomena have nothing to do with "Cadets" or "Cavies", and everything to do with "DCI 5th-place" and "DCI 2nd-place". Plug any other corps into that DCI placement, and you'll get the same behavior. ....if you agree that ticket receipts from eight TOC shows in 2011 won't justify suspending natural law or logic in DCI's evaluation of the drawing power of component corps vs. the collective. You think a Crown preview in SC would dampen attendance in Allentown? In similar fashion, Pacific Crest would appear again in their home area at three contests in July. But keep grasping for straws....

And who will sustain it best - the corps that placed high last year, or the corps that is financially/organizationally healthy enough to be around in future years?

In similar fashion, your observations are useless in isolation. Of course the stands fill more as corps appear in reverse order of yesterday's finish. No one is denying that some people want to see the best, and if they can only sit still for part of the contest, it will more likely be the part with the better corps. But we can't presume to know a year in advance who the better corps are going to be. DCI wouldn't be staging contests if the competitive outcome was entirely predestined. Thus, should Pacific Crest find themselves winning against all world-class competition in 2011, you'll see mobs at their booster table and finals-week rehearsals, and people skipping the Blue Devils' field performance to watch Crest warm up. So what? How many more ticket sales do we credit to Pacific Crest then? How much more money should we direct to Pacific Crest via DCI revenue-sharing? Do we throw another corps out of the TOC to make room for Pacific Crest? I find your presumption that "elite corps" (whoever they are) "attract more ticket buyers" to be illogical. If Pacific Crest became an "elite corps", would we have more "elite corps"? If so, we'd have more ticket buyers, right? Maybe we should have more elite corps, then. Let's have 23 elite corps! Furthermore, your support for this presumption of elite corps selling tickets just doesn't add up. You point to people in parking lots and at rehearsals....you don't know whether those people even are ticket buyers, much less whether their decision to buy a ticket hinged on the corps in the parking lot/rehearsal you witnessed. Bottom line is, no one can say how many people any one corps "draws" to a DCI event....or to what degree individual corps influence the "draw" vs. the aggregate drawing power of the DCI league....or how much of an individual corps' drawing power is owed to their status in the DCI league. By the way, what was it about the timing or location of either the Pacific Crest sneak preview or the three Cs contest in Allentown that you think affected their relative attendance figures?

This type of thread shouldn't be allowed without also specifying the corps that will be displaced. Is it automatically assumed to be the current 12th place corps? Glassmen have only missed finals maybe 2-3 times since making it in 1993. I'm sure the same can be said for Blue Knights. Madison's only going up, and Blue Stars is one the DCI darlings. So, a more interesting question would be: Who's more likely to stumble; to lose their inertia, thus making it more likely that [insert ur fav non-top-12] will get in?

So, you want dci to be like rose parade bands. I don't want that.

I'm watching all the marching bands in the Rose Bowl parade right now, and I'm struck that every one of these bands is playing music that is recognizable and " fan friendly ". There are millions of people right now watching these bands today. What was the question on this thread again ?

i'm with you on this one. I think difficulty isn't rewarded the way it used to be, I think it's become a different kind of difficulty. Back even just a few years ago, the speed of your drill dictated difficulty, now it's how much body movement and props you can use while either not playing, or playing chords.... that's become what's rewarded, and I think it's a problem. I think until judges stop rewarding that kind of stuff, and reward more of the classically accepted difficulty, things won't change. I want to be impressed, and I want to impress people with the things my and the other kids in corps are doing at the same time. I want to be able to watch the DVD in November, and think, "Holy ****, I DID that? WOW!"

There is no one single way to be creative. It CAN be as you describe, but it can also be playing anything the designer wants with any combination of instruments, including voice, synths, WW, strings, etc...

You just described the anti-voice, synth, amp crowd quite well. No, its not that at all. The idea and challenge is to create a highly entertaining show of marching/music for the members and fans. The 'intended media' is marching, music and guard on a football field.

That would be great to see and hear. Why not?

There are still balance issues within various sections of the corps micced or not...and its been decades and decades of time to fix them.

no " singers " and the " rock guitarists ", no high brow shows that make sense to the designers only -see BD 2010 melody. flow. color. real impacts. shows based on performance, not mirrors , or Jeffries , or a guy playing flugel horn in his pajamas . No cheese soloists using a mic because they have no sound. no effects on brass instruments. you ruined a great bari solo bluecoats. No intermission in shows with less than 8 corps. no shows with less than 6 corps add OC or seniors .