Rifuarian

Anyone curious about the sound in Lucas Oil can go to a certain tubular website and watch some performances from an organization that many DCPers have bizarre and irrational hatred towards. I especially recommend a one minute clip of a group that shares its name with a well-known cosmetics company. It's not live, but it's something. In my opinion, the sound is not nearly as bad as it is in other domes, but it's far from ideal. We were spoiled last year at Memorial.

While I don't agree with the folks blaming DCI for the demise of open class, I'm happy to hear their opinions. This is a discussion board, after all. No one is under any delusion that what we say here is going to make much of a difference. It's just nice to be able to air your opinions. But I do urge anyone concerned about Open Class to see as many shows as possible, and plunk down money at their souvie trucks instead of at the Cavies, Cadets, Devs, etc. That's the only way a real difference is going to be made. But as a realist I know that's not going to happen as long as attending an open class show is seen as a chore by most fans instead of a delight.

a) I don't really disagree with this one, but the death of those 7 corps seems to have more to do with long term financial issues than the structure of finals week. Maybe there's a connection, but I don't see it. b) Most of those extra spots go to kids who will only march a top world class corps. Even if they were cut, it's unlikely they would go to open class. Now, if the lower placing WC corps were fielding full, 150 member units, I would say there was some merit to this argument, but they're struggling just as much. c) Possibly, but is there any evidence of this? I know it would be hard to come up with, but this seems kind of spurious otherwise. d &e) If anything, I think these broadcasts reinforced the "Cavies or nothing", "Phantom or nothing", etc. attitude that prevails among many (or most) potential members. By the late 90s the PBS broadcasts only showed the top 5 corps, with the briefest snippets of the rest. The ESPN broadcast was much the same. I remember recording the 98 broadcast, and fast forwarding through the "boring" parts with my friends and watching the top five over and over. I eventually came to my senses, but not everyone does. I know a lot of kids who have gone out for Cavies 3-4 times, and gotten their rank 3s and rank 2s, who absolutely refuse to try out for ANYONE else. The guy complaining about the "crappy" corps earlier may look like a buffoon, but his opinion is representative of the majority of drum corps' fanbase. For these people there's the best, and then there's the rest.

I was pretty bummed with Southwind didn't make it in 2000. Not sure how much of an upset that was placement wise, but I was kind of upset . . .

Look, I can be as righteously indignant as the next redneck when defending the South, but you didn't do us any favors here.

Pioneer's World Class status has more to do with its organizational stability than the "celtic crap" you've so unfairly been subjected to. And any corps that is ballsy enough to still teach kids from scratch -- and to accept the competitive consequences of it -- is not crappy in my book. But it's your choice to be a blithering idiot if you want. As for the topic of the this thread -- or rather the topic it has evolved to cover -- I'll say again: DCI has no obligation whatsoever to preserve OC drum corps. DCI was conceived by the big corps to serve the big corps. It's their prerogative, and let's not forget that DCI, in the past, has had a hard enough time staying afloat trying to serve the interests of the corps at the top. If anything, they've kept OC alive far longer than it would have stayed otherwise. Open class corps has been run over by a society that no longer sees the need for local organizations like the small corps that used to proliferate across the nation, and by you, the fans, who don't feel it is worth your time and money to watch them, march them, and but their souvenirs. Those evil, conveniently faceless scapegoats at DCI aren't completely blameless, but the bulk of the responsibility lies elsewhere.

Well, we usually asked ourselves "Will there be a next year?"

It (the lack of fan support) is the stark fact that few are willing to face up to when this topic comes up. I hear a lot of sanctimonious posturing on DCP, in the stands at world class shows, and elsewhere about the state of open class and DCI's "responsibility", but the fact is that beyond family, friends, staff, and alumni very few drum corps fans bother to show up for open class shows. And the legacy fans who bemoan the death local corps are just as guilty as the band kids and the recent vets of world class shows. DCI has no responsibility to the little corps. It was created by the big dogs for the big dogs. Even so, they've done a lot more than most people are willing to believe, and have probably kept small, junior drum corps alive much longer than it would have lasted on its own. But as long as there's no fan interest they're not going to do anything more. As for myself, I find open class corps fantastically entertaining. Of course, I spent two summers in a small corps, and I also find myself entertained by small marching bands in my native state (Kentucky) that can't even qualify for the state competition. Clearly, the standards of entertainment for most fans are much higher than my own. Maybe if more open class corps abandoned the overwrought designs that so many world class corps it would make a difference. But probably not. About giving tickets away for free . . . they're practically free already. Most of the fans who buy the five show ticket package just throw away the open class tickets. I don't really think it would be any different if DCI shipped free open class finals tickets with world class finals tickets. The majority of them would go in the trash. It's sad, but that's the way it is.

Both world class and open class corps seem happy with this arrangement, so I doubt it'll be changing anytime soon. But for those of you complaining about the lack of attention and opportunity given by DCI to the open class, I'll say this: DCI will start caring more about open class when the "fans" start getting their butts out of their hotel beds and attending open class finals. The fans don't care, DCI doesn't care (which is not quite true, as they do more than most give them credit for). Simple as that.

How BD can be so good year in and year out boggles the mind. They are far superior to the rest of the field technically, have a great show this year, and I for one am entertained by it, even if the relationship to 1930 isn't always clear. I think if fielding shows that look like they come straight from WGI is going to rub a lot fans the wrong way, but if that's the style BD has chosen then more power to them. I just hope other corps don't go down the same road.

There may be some truth to what you're saying. But I think it mostly boils down to a "my corps, right or wrong" attitude that most FMMs share. For better or for worse, the Cadets are always at the center of attention on DCP, so it's natural we have a lot of Cadets veterans posting frequently to defend their corps. The Cavies are rarely at the center of any controversy, but when they are (for example, in the brouhaha over last year's finals retreat) you'll see plenty of Cavies fans voicing their support.

I don't have any religious objection to snyths -- I think we've seen some good examples of synths being used well so far today (and some not so good) -- but I will never, ever understand why a full, World Class contra line needs any support from a low brass patch. But a great show from the Crossmen, and everyone else, otherwise.

But they weren't the only ones. At the Van Buren competition, where the Colts received their 80.350, BK was given an 84.450. Their score at Murfreesboro? 83.450. At Monroe the Bluecoats got an 87.7, but only got an 87 tonight. So the Colts are far from alone. This sort of thing happens all the time. The Colts got that 80.35 at a competition where their closest rivals of late, the Troopers, were absent. Then, at Murfreesboro, the Troopers went on before the Colts, and the judges gave them the same score the Colts got a couple of days earlier, 80.35. So when the Colts came on after the break and the judges decided that, for whatever reason, the Troopers were much better than the Colts that night they had nowhere to go but down. Simple as that. Scores are not absolutely comparable. They're dependent on who is at a show, who isn't, the order they perform, etc., and when these factors change some seemingly funky things can happen, but it's no conspiracy.

I'm not sure if I would ever do it, but if anyone wants to spend $450 to help fund the activity, then more power to them. And is it a "waste of money" to spend $2500 to spend all summer marching in a "band"?

1. Stability in staff and administration. 2. This year they're the odds on favorite for the 12th spot. But even if they don't make it in, I think they've set themselves up for future success. 3. The show seems to be a case of the designers "trying too hard", which coupled with guard, percussion, and visual troubles has yanked Madison out of finals. 4. In 2003 I decided Crown would be the next new DCI champion, and I've stuck by that prediction ever since. Of all the corps that have broken into the top 5 over the last decade -- Glassmen, Boston, Blue Knights, and Bluecoats -- it seems to me that Crown, more than anyone else, has the people, the organization, and the appeal to the most talented performers to win a championship. But first they have build themselves into a consistent top four or five program, instead of slipping back in the rankings like so many others. Easier said than done, but so far it's looking good . . . 5. When I marched in a Div. 3 corps it was fashionable to blame DCI for all the woes small corps were (and are) facing. I still think DCI shares some responsibility, but 90% of the blame lies with us, the fans. When I went to Open Class finals last year, I didn't even have to by myself a ticket. Someone gave me one, because the group she was attending finals with decided to stay in bed rather than attend. When I walked in, I was able to get a perfect seat on the 50. There was hardly anyone around me, and by the end of the show it still wasn't crowded. Most of the people there looked parents and friends of marchers, corps staff, and alumni -- more like a band competition audience than a drum corps. The fans like bigger and louder, so I don't think we can blame DCI for giving the fans what they want. We can only blame ourselves.

I love hard, fast, loud performances as much as the next guy, but for me the greatest 60 seconds was the last minute of SCV 2000. Seeing that show live at Murfreesboro affected me in a way that no other performance has since. The minute containing the end of Adagio of Strings and the transition to Stained Glass was great too (too bad it had be to ruined at finals), but that ending was sublime. And then the Blue Devils came on right after that and, in my favorite 20 seconds of drum corps, showed me just what the pit has to do in order to actually get some respect from the crowd. As for my favorite "before my time" minute, whoever said Star of Indiana 1990 from 3:15 to 4:01 took the words (or numbers) right out of mouth. Just imagining what that was like live gives me goosebumps. The same goes for the opening of Spirit 1980.

Make sure that you're not engaged before you join like I was. That way you can get yourself a member of the opposite sex to cuddle up with and do . . . whatever. I always thought that would make the bus rides easier, but I never knew whether it was true or not since I spent two consecutive summers riding next to a very large, very hairy, very sweaty, and very male contra. Great guy, but he ranked very low on the cuddly scale. Edit: Joining a corps that has them new-fangled air conditioner thingies on board would be helpful as well. Back in two thousand aught one we didn't have no such luxuries.

I'm not going to name any particular corps. I'm just going to post this image, and let the rest of you discuss it:

To anyone attempting to argue with Hrothgar: You are arguing with an ivy league undergrad at the peak of his idealism. What's more, given his affection for Apple products, he is probably a hipster. Attempting to change his mind with rational argument is as futile as trying to get the Troopers DM to make funny animal balloons for your kids. It ain't gonna happen! I know this because I was once like him. But don't worry, reality will crush his spirit soon enough. My apologies to the OP. But this needs to be said if this thread is to have any chance of getting back on topic.

Work smart, not hard. BD has perfected this on the field and in practice. There's another corps in green that has done the same thing. One of the several reasons why have so much respect for these organizations. Note: This isn't to say that they don't work hard -- they just know how to work hard as efficiently and sensibly as possible.

Just a few things that haven't been mentioned: For lunch I've always liked the pastrami at Shapiro's Deli, a couple minutes south of the stadium. John's Hot Stew, also near the stadium on Kentucky Ave., is in a skeazy looking area but is cheap, and has (as the name would imply), great stew. Not sure if it still exists though, as I haven't been in a while. Oceanaire seafood downtown is a chain, but it's worth trying if you don't have one near you (and are willing to spend cash). Red Eye Cafe isn't all that great, but it's near the stadium and open 24 hours, so it's good, non-Steak and Shake option for after the show. Patachoux across from the capitol building is good for breakfast. I second the recommendations for St. Elmo's, Yats, the Broad Ripple, Rock Bottom Brewery, Slippery Noodle, and the Ram. Go to Rathskeller for the beer, but avoid the German food -- for a city with such a strong German heritage it's not all that good. But if you want to go to a place that has as many or more good restaurants as Indy crammed into one small, walkable downtown you should head an hour south to Bloomington! As for the sights, the White River State Park is in walking distance of downtown, and is the sight of several excellent museums (if you're into that sort of thing) such as the NCAA Hall of Champions, the Indiana State Museum, and the Eiteljorg Museum of Native American Art. Outside of Indy, Bloomington again is a great place to visit. Nashville, which is 20 miles west of Bloomington, is a nice little touristy place with loads of shops -- the older people in your group might enjoy. It's usually not crowded in August, so it'll be a good time to visit. Hoosier National Forest, Brown County State Park, Yellowwood State Forest, Morgan-Monroe State Forest, and Griffy Lake are a few of the several places in the Bloomington-Nashville area that are good for hiking. Turkey Run State Park is beautiful and unique, and is about an hour west of Indy (and actually a good 30-40 miles from Terre Haute). The county it's situated in, Parke, is home to more covered bridges than any county in the country, and is a very pleasant place to drive around if you have a day to spare.

Did you lose an argument to, or were somehow humiliated by, someone who didn't march? Because that's almost always the prerequisite for this topic rearing its ugly head. Edit: Just looked at the synths thread. Question answered.

A good show from BK, but I don't like it as much as their 06-08 offerings. A great show from the Blue Devils, but it seems to get bogged down towards the end, which reminds a bit of "Winged Victory". The Copland is really really cool, but i think they might be dwelling on it a little too long. I agree that the brass had issues, but they're my front-runner for the championship. Now the real question . . . will Vanguard top the Cavaliers? Almost certainly not, but I'd love to see it. When was the last time that happened? 1999?

A great show visually (duh) but all in all it left me flat. That said, I thought the same thing about Samurai at this time last year, but then they blew me away at finals. I expect it'll be the same with this show, but that may not be enough to keep them in the top 3. Unfortunately I can't look at the guard without thinking of Bruno. Those uniforms look like they came straight out of his wardrobe.

Bloo has some great individual moments, but this show falls a bit flat and disjointed right after a show as seamless and powerful as Vanguard's. They may face some tough competition from Boston and the Blue Stars for seventh.