See me, hear me...(don't touch me or feel me, though...ew.)

[Liam]

winners circle?

Yeah, I caught that too .... I wonder if it was "pun intended" .... :P

[Keith Laubhan]

It's an audio visual medium, and as such, they should both be rewarded. As for the way it's weighted, I have no problem with it currently, though at the end of the day, it's all about the spreads, anyway. It could be 80/20 music to vis, and if you keep in close in music and open up a big spread in vis, you'll win.

[Matt_S]

I was suggesting that since everyone does drill, it's less of a factor. The logic is that most performers are musicians; 75-80% of the corps is there to do music. Visual is important, but because a large majority of the performance is about music, it's a good idea to make it weigh more.

Haha, you're arguing with your conclusion as your premise. Throw out all the numbers you brought up, your entire argument has been "because a large majority of the performance is about music, it's a good idea to make it weigh more". Well, you still haven't proven to me that music is the majority of the performance.

A corps with 35 members in guard has 100 people playing music. That's about 75%. Well, 100% of the corps is contributing to the visual effect - yes, even the pit can be used visually. The only way for you to use these numbers to prove music is more important... is to start out with the premise that music is more important!

In my opinion, it needs to be both. Sure, you can watch an encore performance without drill and still be entertained. I'll even buy the argument that no one would want to watch drill with no music. But if the activity were simply encore performances, there'd be no need to be outside standing up on a football field. We could sit down on chairs inside a performance venue, and have wind ensemble. Drum corps as an activity requires the visual element, just as critically as it requires music. Saying that either element should be the focus is a mistake; it implies that the other element is slighted. The best shows have offered thrills both visually and musically, and if either aspect is lacking then the show is a lesser product for it.

[Bob984]

Regarding my "winner's circle" comment....goes back to my like of horseracing...the winning horse goes to the winner's circle.....probably ironic that you can win a drum corps championship just like a horse race....wire to wire....on the last stretch......coming from behind.....or by a nose....

GB

[Bob984]

Haha, you're arguing with your conclusion as your premise. Throw out all the numbers you brought up, your entire argument has been "because a large majority of the performance is about music, it's a good idea to make it weigh more". Well, you still haven't proven to me that music is the majority of the performance.

A corps with 35 members in guard has 100 people playing music. That's about 75%. Well, 100% of the corps is contributing to the visual effect - yes, even the pit can be used visually. The only way for you to use these numbers to prove music is more important... is to start out with the premise that music is more important!

In my opinion, it needs to be both. Sure, you can watch an encore performance without drill and still be entertained. I'll even buy the argument that no one would want to watch drill with no music. But if the activity were simply encore performances, there'd be no need to be outside standing up on a football field. We could sit down on chairs inside a performance venue, and have wind ensemble. Drum corps as an activity requires the visual element, just as critically as it requires music. Saying that either element should be the focus is a mistake; it implies that the other element is slighted. The best shows have offered thrills both visually and musically, and if either aspect is lacking then the show is a lesser product for it.

It is evident that those who are screaming that visual/music should be 50/50 in the scoring are acting as though anything else would be something new......music ALWAYS (way back in the medieval period...) had more points, and 50/50 with the guard in there did not happen until way back (lol) in 2000........yes, drum corps does have a visual element......however, I can tell you that corps from the past that had great visual packages but not great musically (even if they finished high...) are not played in my CD player.......and guess what, yes I would run to see a great musical corps play a standstill. There isn't a corps out there who I would go to just watch their drill....I can also tell you straight up that if a corps does not have a great musical product, there is NOTHING a drill can do to save it, IMO....and to me, the number one problem with SOME shows today... However, I think a show that is great musically but just good visually still comes across as a great show....but not the opposite....at least for me.............

GB

[geneseo_bari_87]

I'm in it for the pit visuals. B)

[Bob984]

True. But it's also possible that we could have 5 different corps win High Brass, Percussion, Color Guard, GE Visual, and GE Music ..... and none of them take the Championship. This almost happened in SA (Cavies beat Crown in CG, otherwise the above scenario played out). This to me means that the top corps are all tops at something, but to win you need to be darn near the top at everything. Of course, this is just this year -- in other years the winner has swept all categories, so who's to say what might happen in the future with a different scoring system. I'd like music to be emphasized a little more and it seems to be this year without a scoring change. Let's see how this plays out before we panic and change the scoring system underneath this natural evolution.

To answer to OPs questions -- I'd say Both Equally (really, both Together, if you get the distinction), and About right on the other two.

Right now, a corps finishing 5th in music is on the verge of winning DCI because of xtremely high guard scores and margins, and I will not be surprised if they win a championship coming in 5th in music performance......yes, I have a problem with that...........this isn't WGI......maybe that is what needs to happen for the music community to stand up and scream "ENOUGH"!!!!!

GB

[Matt_S]

however, I can tell you that corps from the past that had great visual packages but not great musically (even if they finished high...) are not played in my CD player.......

That's not exactly a startling revelation. I'm the same way. But when I go to the quarterfinals broadcast in a few weeks, I'm still going to be ###### if the video feed goes out. B)

[drumcat]

Haha, you're arguing with your conclusion as your premise. Throw out all the numbers you brought up, your entire argument has been "because a large majority of the performance is about music, it's a good idea to make it weigh more". Well, you still haven't proven to me that music is the majority of the performance.

A corps with 35 members in guard has 100 people playing music. That's about 75%. Well, 100% of the corps is contributing to the visual effect - yes, even the pit can be used visually. The only way for you to use these numbers to prove music is more important... is to start out with the premise that music is more important!

In my opinion, it needs to be both. Sure, you can watch an encore performance without drill and still be entertained. I'll even buy the argument that no one would want to watch drill with no music. But if the activity were simply encore performances, there'd be no need to be outside standing up on a football field. We could sit down on chairs inside a performance venue, and have wind ensemble. Drum corps as an activity requires the visual element, just as critically as it requires music. Saying that either element should be the focus is a mistake; it implies that the other element is slighted. The best shows have offered thrills both visually and musically, and if either aspect is lacking then the show is a lesser product for it.

Well, then let's be less tangible and go back to my original statement about encores. Would you enjoy a season of encores where the corps didn't play, but only marched? It might be cute once, but only a musical runthrough will do for an encore. That's because for every one drill idea, dozens of musical ideas are conveyed. I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with that; there is a limit to how many pictures a group can put on a field in 11 minutes. But clearly, unequivocably, there are many more musical ideas going on within a show.

This isn't to say that the visual is unimportant, and your statement that if either were lacking is true. However, shows aren't named after the drillsets. Drill augments the show. Thus, it should not be judged as an equal.

[beavs]

Right now, a corps finishing 5th in music is on the verge of winning DCI because of xtremely high guard scores and margins, and I will not be surprised if they win a championship coming in 5th in music performance......yes, I have a problem with that...........this isn't WGI......maybe that is what needs to happen for the music community to stand up and scream "ENOUGH"!!!!!

GB

You make it sound like 5th is a bad thing. Besides, you can get 5th or lower in music and still have a musically entertaining show. Just like you can get 1st in music and have the most musically boring show in DCI this year. Music:Visual is equal, as it should be. The performers are creating the music and the visual. They should be judged on both equally. The real argument comes from effect vs. performance, but lets not start that on this thread.

I understand that some people want a champ show that they can listen to in their CD player or iPod and enjoy. Thats not what drum corps is about. When I (rarely) do just listen to my drum corps shows I can see the drill in my head. I'm going through the guard work in my head as the music goes by, and i'm acting out the horn moves and visuals. I'm not sitting in my car, conducting it like its a symphony. I save that for Mahler. Most good drum corps shows are meant to be seen and heard. Thats how I enjoy my drum corps shows.

As for the champion corps getting 5th in music come finals... I wouldn't be suprized if the 1st place corps doesn't win a single caption. Thats how close the top corps are, and I can see that happening. ...and I love it.