See me, hear me...(don't touch me or feel me, though...ew.)

[jpaul]

It is evident that those who are screaming that visual/music should be 50/50 in the scoring are acting as though anything else would be something new

Who's screaming?

However, I think a show that is great musically but just good visually still comes across as a great show....but not the opposite....at least for me.............

That's not a universally held opinion.

That's because for every one drill idea, dozens of musical ideas are conveyed. I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with that; there is a limit to how many pictures a group can put on a field in 11 minutes.

Your understanding of what's encompassed in the visual captions appears to be limited. It goes way beyond "pictures" and "drill sets." Current drum corps can and do present a multitude of visual ideas simultaneously, using drill/staging, movement/dance, equipment/colors/props/costuming layered one on top of another, very much like musical orchestration.

I understand that some people want a champ show that they can listen to in their CD player or iPod and enjoy. Thats not what drum corps is about.

Excellent point. It's a nice byproduct, but not the essence of the activity.

Ya, saw it, thanks. They knocked it out of the park. That doesn't mean that because of that show, we should judge 50/50.

The change in the scoring system predates "that show" by 2 years.

Music makes sense without visual. Visual doesn't make sense without music. With that, I believe that music should weigh more than just evenly.

I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Have you ever seen the Marine Corps Silent Drill Team? Are you aware that in the early days of winter guard there was no soundtrack. Music was added to ENHANCE the visual program. Many forms of visual art exist all over the world without the benefit of music. You may find more interest or enjoyment in the music than the visual, and so it seems more important. That's fine. But to say that the visual doesn't make sense without music is just untrue.

Would you say that given that thought process the visual component is the one with the most potential for growth, then, due to its relative newness?

We see evidence of that every year. I acknowledge my bias in this area, but I would say that in recent years we've seen more creativity in visual than we have in music.

because they (Cavs) will win composite visual, will be fifth in composite music but will still win overall..............the point I continue to make..................

So, I guess DCI doesn't really need to pay all those judges in Pasadena.

Yes.....I jumped to the sarcastic....but if I am losing my argument, then prove your point......post another post and simply suggest that more points get allocated for visual then music, take a poll, and then we will see just how much in the "minority' I am........

I don't think that's the point he was trying to make.

[leadsopranoman]

I would pay to see a standstill of just horns and drums. That is not the case for drill and visuals like flags and sabers/rifles. The truly emotional effect that we experience from drum corps comes from the music. The visuals are cool, exciting, and can be breath-taking, but not in the same way as the music, and certainly not without the music.

The best case in point for this argument is this: shows that exhibited amazing music often ended up being fan favorites, even when their visual design was not up to the current standard in design and demand.

Ditto.

I voted that the current scoring is correct, because the champions of the past few years, have seemed to be the best corps. So I think that something is right here. Also, when it comes to music just because I like listening to corps a over corps b. doesnt mean to me that they should win. With so many different approaches and styles to music in todays world and even different approaches to visual it can all be subjective. It would be hard to judge a jazz band in the same contest as a rock band and an orchestra. So I'm down with what they are doing, and if I dont agree with judging ... thats fine. I still have been entertained, and like watching drum corps.

[drumcat]

I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Have you ever seen the Marine Corps Silent Drill Team? Are you aware that in the early days of winter guard there was no soundtrack. Music was added to ENHANCE the visual program. Many forms of visual art exist all over the world without the benefit of music. You may find more interest or enjoyment in the music than the visual, and so it seems more important. That's fine. But to say that the visual doesn't make sense without music is just untrue.

If you would please not take my points out of context... I did NOT say anything about guard work. Guard work is not drill. I didn't talk about work being unable to stand on its own, and I don't think it's somehow inferior; it is its own art. DRILL, not guard work, is what augments.

[justanopinion]

They are simply calling a spade a spade.............

GB

LOL. Oh....I get it now. The drum judges are calling 'a spade a spade' when they use spreads, but the guard judges are just plain wrong? Man, your arguments are getting less and less persuasive the longer this thread is around.

[jpaul]

Sorry if I misunderstood. Here's your entire statement:

Ya, saw it, thanks. They knocked it out of the park. That doesn't mean that because of that show, we should judge 50/50. It also doesn't mean music should be 100%, or we'll all stand still. That drill was ahead of its time. You can back up further to the Z-pull, asymmetric, etc. etc. Doesn't mean that it's equal to music. Amazing? Ya. But none of it makes sense without music; especially the show you're calling out.

That show might be fun to watch without sound once or twice, but imagine how little it would make sense without the music. It would be a fancy human kaleidoscope.

Music makes sense without visual. Visual doesn't make sense without music. With that, I believe that music should weigh more than just evenly.

I disagree with you on two points:

1. You clearly state that VISUAL doesn't make sense without music. Whether you meant visual or drill, the point of my response is that visual art/design/performance absolutely does make sense without music. Maybe the drum coprps community, as a whole, doesn't see that, but that's the result of limited thinking or a lack of exposure. I'm not saying that drum corps should become all visual with no music. I'm just pointing out that in the broader scope of art and performance both have equal value, alone and together.

2. Drill does not equal visual. There are far more things happening visually in a drum corps show than just the drill. To discuss one visual aspect in isolation from all the others is an inadequate representation of the topic. Many hours are spent developing programs that integrate ALL the components into a cohesive program. That's what made Frameworks the success that it was.

[Bob984]

LOL. Oh....I get it now. The drum judges are calling 'a spade a spade' when they use spreads, but the guard judges are just plain wrong? Man, your arguments are getting less and less persuasive the longer this thread is around.

Since I wrote for/taught a world champion drumline, have an MM in Percussion Performance, and am a published percussion author, I think I am qualified to say that the perc. judges called it right.................I will admit I am not a guard person, and I don't see the spread of superiority there....maybe I am wrong..........I will stick with my other statement....that guard score will push Cavs to the top in compositite visual and they will win, complete with a 5th place composite music score. Some have already expressed they are ok with that.....that's their perogative, but I'm not, and I am sure that I am not alone.....in fact, 46% in the poll have indicated they believe there is too much emphasis on visual in both judging and design..........also, as I said before....if you feel that visual is the more important element, run a poll asking how people feel about increasing scoring for visual and decreasing musical points. Have fun....

GB

[Liam]

Since I wrote for/taught a world champion drumline, have an MM in Percussion Performance, and am a published percussion author, I think I am qualified to say that the perc. judges called it right.................I will admit I am not a guard person, and I don't see the spread of superiority there....maybe I am wrong..........I will stick with my other statement....that guard score will push Cavs to the top in compositite visual and they will win, complete with a 5th place composite music score. Some have already expressed they are ok with that.....that's their perogative, but I'm not, and I am sure that I am not alone.....in fact, 46% in the poll have indicated they believe there is too much emphasis on visual in both judging and design..........also, as I said before....if you feel that visual is the more important element, run a poll asking how people feel about increasing scoring for visual and decreasing musical points. Have fun....

GB

Except that no matter how much "weight" certain captions are given, it is the spread within that caption that has an effect on the overall score differential. We could make it 90/10 music/visual, but if the music scores are all bunched up and one corps has a big spread over the others in visual, they could still win with a "5th place music" score. You're looking at placements as if 5th place is equally far from 1st as 9th is from 5th, which isn't necessarily so. No matter how you divie up the scorecard, if the top corps are relatively close to each other in all categories but one, and one corps is significantly better in that one area, there's a chance that will be enough to put them over the top. And why shouldn't it?? It could be CG one year and percussion the next year, but if you are close enough to your competitors in most areas, and dominant in one, why shouldn't that make you a championship corps??

[Bob984]

Since I wrote for/taught a world champion drumline, have an MM in Percussion Performance, and am a published percussion author, I think I am qualified to say that the perc. judges called it right.................I will admit I am not a guard person, and I don't see the spread of superiority there....maybe I am wrong..........I will stick with my other statement....that guard score will push Cavs to the top in compositite visual and they will win, complete with a 5th place composite music score. Some have already expressed they are ok with that.....that's their perogative, but I'm not, and I am sure that I am not alone.....in fact, 46% in the poll have indicated they believe there is too much emphasis on visual in both judging and design..........also, as I said before....if you feel that visual is the more important element, run a poll asking how people feel about increasing scoring for visual and decreasing musical points. Have fun....

GB

45%......sorry.....I'll fix that before I am slammed.........

[justanopinion]

Since I wrote for/taught a world champion drumline, have an MM in Percussion Performance, and am a published percussion author, I think I am qualified to say that the perc. judges called it right.................I will admit I am not a guard person, and I don't see the spread of superiority there....maybe I am wrong..........I will stick with my other statement....that guard score will push Cavs to the top in compositite visual and they will win, complete with a 5th place composite music score. Some have already expressed they are ok with that.....that's their perogative, but I'm not, and I am sure that I am not alone.....in fact, 46% in the poll have indicated they believe there is too much emphasis on visual in both judging and design..........also, as I said before....if you feel that visual is the more important element, run a poll asking how people feel about increasing scoring for visual and decreasing musical points. Have fun....

GB

Another stat for you:

54% feels there is NOT too much emphasis on visual, or is about right.

(Just in case you forgot that particular stat).

[justanopinion]

Since I wrote for/taught a world champion drumline, have an MM in Percussion Performance, and am a published percussion author, I think I am qualified to say that the perc. judges called it right.................I will admit I am not a guard person, and I don't see the spread of superiority there....maybe I am wrong..........I will stick with my other statement....that guard score will push Cavs to the top in compositite visual and they will win, complete with a 5th place composite music score. Some have already expressed they are ok with that.....that's their perogative, but I'm not, and I am sure that I am not alone.....in fact, 46% in the poll have indicated they believe there is too much emphasis on visual in both judging and design..........also, as I said before....if you feel that visual is the more important element, run a poll asking how people feel about increasing scoring for visual and decreasing musical points. Have fun....

GB

Again pulling guard OUT of the visual composite for your argument, but then going back to music composite to avoid the discussion that the Cavies are actually competitive in some music areas.