See me, hear me...(don't touch me or feel me, though...ew.)

[beavs]

However, shows aren't named after the drillsets. Drill augments the show. Thus, it should not be judged as an equal.

One show comes to mind...one that changed the way drum corps was designed, watched, listened to, and judged. It wasn't too long ago... 'bout 5 years or so.

[dccorpsfan]

One show comes to mind...one that changed the way drum corps was designed, watched, listened to, and judged. It wasn't too long ago... 'bout 5 years or so.

With these guys?

[Bob984]

You make it sound like 5th is a bad thing. Besides, you can get 5th or lower in music and still have a musically entertaining show. Just like you can get 1st in music and have the most musically boring show in DCI this year. Music:Visual is equal, as it should be. The performers are creating the music and the visual. They should be judged on both equally. The real argument comes from effect vs. performance, but lets not start that on this thread.

5th in music is not bad, but definitely bad for a so-called DRUM AND BUGLE corps CHAMPION........If you have a musically ineffective show, agreed....that should show up in the effect score, but we both know that music effect should be called something else, because if you are clean at the end, you are a 19 if even only 3 people clap......I agree to disagree that music/visual should be scored equally....it's only been that way since 2000, and many, including me, believe the scoring emphasis should still be on music, as it was for many, many years...........

I understand that some people want a champ show that they can listen to in their CD player or iPod and enjoy. Thats not what drum corps is about.

MAYBE NOT FOR YOU!!!! If that "championship" musical show can not stand on it's own music-wise, than, to me, it was never a championship show.....

When I (rarely) do just listen to my drum corps shows I can see the drill in my head.

Good for you....I'm not a visual person.....I will remember a great visual moment, but otherwise, it's the music that touches me, not the visual....

I'm going through the guard work in my head as the music goes by, and i'm acting out the horn moves and visuals. I'm not sitting in my car, conducting it like its a symphony. I save that for Mahler.

I remember EVERY NOTE of a great arrangement.....

Most good drum corps shows are meant to be seen and heard. Thats how I enjoy my drum corps shows.

No diss on a good visual package, but if the music ain't happenin', it ain't happenin'.................

As for the champion corps getting 5th in music come finals... I wouldn't be suprized if the 1st place corps doesn't win a single caption. Thats how close the top corps are, and I can see that happening. ...and I love it.

No surprise here....it's happened before..........but I don't think a guard score should ever give a corps with a 5th place musical package the championship.....no way, no how..........................

GB

[justanopinion]

Right now, a corps finishing 5th in music is on the verge of winning DCI because of xtremely high guard scores and margins, and I will not be surprised if they win a championship coming in 5th in music performance......yes, I have a problem with that...........this isn't WGI......maybe that is what needs to happen for the music community to stand up and scream "ENOUGH"!!!!!

GB

I'm rather fine with the above scenario if that's the way the numbers crunch.

To each his own.

[justanopinion]

No surprise here....it's happened before..........but I don't think a guard score should ever give a corps with a 5th place musical package the championship.....no way, no how..........................

GB

5th place musical package??? The corps I believe you are talking about was 3rd in Music Effect (2nd in showmanship) in San Antonio, and 2nd in music ensemble (tying for first in musicianship). 5th in brass? yes. But that's not all of the story. Stop generalizing.

That's just an arbitrary argument. You can't pull one caption, like guard, out of the entire recap and say THAT's what won the championship. Obviously all of the other captions have to be somewhere up there (yes, 5th is up there) in order to win a championship. The corps you are bashing....I mean talking about....was 2nd in Ensemble music (first in musicianship mind you) in San Antonio. 5th in brass? yes. But 2nd in Ensemble music.

Not as cut and dry as you would like to make it. You can't just decide which caption to pull out of your......um...recap and say THAT one is the reason....... THAT ONE!!!

cheers.

Edited July 24, 2007 by justanopinion

[Bob984]

5th place musical package??? The corps I believe you are talking about was 3rd in Music Effect (2nd in showmanship) in San Antonio, and 2nd in music ensemble (tying for first in musicianship). 5th in brass? yes. But that's not all of the story. Stop generalizing.

I'm not generalizing anything......there are 3 scores that add to 100....the composite effect score, the composite visual score, and the composite music score...check the sheets, and call DCI if you need an explanation...you add those 3 numbers for your 100.....Cavs YES HAVE BEEN 5TH PLACE IN MUSIC IN ALL OF THE LAST 3 MAJOR MEETINGS OF THE TOP 7....and I don't see that changing..............

That's just an arbitrary argument. You can't pull one caption, like guard, out of the entire recap and say THAT's what won the championship. Obviously all of the other captions have to be somewhere up there (yes, 5th is up there) in order to win a championship. The corps you are bashing....I mean talking about....was 2nd in Ensemble music (first in musicianship mind you) in San Antonio. 5th in brass? yes. But 2nd in Ensemble music.

Last year, it took inflated 19.8 and 19.9 (did they march well...yeah......that well..........NO....) in visual for Cavs to win the title........This year, they will beat the 2nd place corps in CG by at least .8 and maybe by more....they will either win or finish 2nd in visual......they will not win a single music number, and will finish 5th in Music and may win....if you are cool with that, fine, but I'm not, and I think many others will not be, either..........the reason I point to the guard number is that it is way higher than those around them total score-wise....I have no qualm with them winning that caption, but to me, even a convincing win in guard should not compensate a 5th place musical score....but it will.........

Not as cut and dry as you would like to make it. You can't just decide which caption to pull out of your......um...recap and say THAT one is the reason....... THAT ONE!!!

5th in music at 3 consecutive majors, 1st in CG at all 3 of those shows, and yet within 10ths of 1st already looks pretty cut and dry to me..........nudge their visual numbers just a bit more and a high 19 in CG, which will most likely happen, and the championship is their's....5th place music and all.........who knows....maybe they will win and be 6th in music.........

GB

cheers.

[justanopinion]

Why are you separating and singling the guard caption out of the 'composite visual' but when I try to point out the musical successes within the 'composite music' you don't want to hear it?

Seems inconsistent to me.

[drumcat]

One show comes to mind...one that changed the way drum corps was designed, watched, listened to, and judged. It wasn't too long ago... 'bout 5 years or so.

Ya, saw it, thanks. They knocked it out of the park. That doesn't mean that because of that show, we should judge 50/50. It also doesn't mean music should be 100%, or we'll all stand still. That drill was ahead of its time. You can back up further to the Z-pull, asymmetric, etc. etc. Doesn't mean that it's equal to music. Amazing? Ya. But none of it makes sense without music; especially the show you're calling out.

That show might be fun to watch without sound once or twice, but imagine how little it would make sense without the music. It would be a fancy human kaleidoscope.

Music makes sense without visual. Visual doesn't make sense without music. With that, I believe that music should weigh more than just evenly.

[justanopinion]

Visual doesn't make sense without music.

I'll bet Bluecoats aren't happy to hear that!

[comeonfhqwhgads]

let's review, in the manner of the silent encore comment.

point A: If you had only the music part of drum corps and no visual you would have an encore, or a concert, or some mp3's. Note that all of these exist and flourish.

point b: If you took only the visual aspect of drum corps with no music you'd have a bunch of people running around like idiots for ten minutes. they might look cool every once in a while if a nifty bit of drill popped up, and the guard would be the main focus, but even lyrical interpretive dance has music.

i therefore conclude that, because of these facts, and because the corps members do in fact carry instruments and yes, even play them, that the point of this whole thing is music. We all just up and decided some couple hundred years ago that playing while sitting still wasn't enough of a challenge for extreme musical talents such as ourselves and that moving and playing was a much cooler idea- note the moving part happening later than the music part.