Who should "design teams" write for?

[Triple Forte]

gorecki's got it. its impossible to write for an audience. the audience deosnt know what they want. and if they do, they for sure want something different than the next. and ofcourse design teams dont write to them. they write to the other corps and to the judges, if they arent they are either losing or folding.

all of you who think your going to revolutionize drumcorps by "putting the fans in charge" have lost your minds. the fans cant be in charge... their all idiots, they are the mob of rome, the only way to get them all would be to play to the lowest common denominator.

I disagree with your opinions. Lets start with an easy one.

* Note when I say fans I am talking about the majority

1. Would fans enjoy a drum corps show more if it had dynamics from very soft to very loud or would they like a show more if it was all soft?

I think it is fair to say that fans like powerful drum corps music

2. Do fans like impacts or musical "hits" or do they prefer no musical hits?

I think they like musical hits

I can go on and on but it would be more of the same. The point I am trying to make is that drum corps fans have certain interests that they will respond to just about everytime. I think corps staffs are smart enough to know what these types of effects are. Wether its a FFFF note or a super fast drill move or a really high rifle toss.

So the real question is......are the fans idiots or are the staffs/arrangers idoits?

I will say the staffs and arrangers are more at fault becase as EXPERTS....they should know what elements will generate a crowd reponse. That ofcoarse is if they actually care what the crowd likes/thinks.........

[Bob984]

There is one point missed here..........most of the corps play "arrangements"....music that has already been composed and performed, and then it is arranged for the corps musicians. Some of today's arrangers are so interested in maiking their own "mark" with their arrangement, almost re-writing the piece, that they distort the original and in many instances come up with a product that is not nearly as effective as the original. Two examples:

Successful: Crown....arranger did a superb job arranging the original works for drum corps, keeping the integrity of the

original scores, and completeness of musical thought..........extremely effective...........

Problem : Boston.....La Fiesta.....arranger took so many liberties with the original to attempt to create a different flavor/feel,

that the arrangement came across as "just ok", even though the corps performed very well....as this

happened, all I could think of was the "straight ahead" Maynard Ferguson arrangement for me is so

much more effective, and has been done very well by other drum corps (Devils/Muchachos), and I

wonder how much better they would have been playing an arrangement closer to the Maynard version...

Music is art, and composers are artists. Yes, most professional composers do not sit there and write thinking "the crowd will buy this"....However, the most famous of composers were those who wrote brilliant music that was not only critically aclaimed by the "musical community" but well-received by the public. Orchestras don't still play "great standards" because they HAVE to....they do it because the music is great and the patrons of orchestras wish to hear those works. However, there is always room for new, GREAT compositions. Great music will stand the test of time; always has, always will.

Drum corps is a musical "sport" played in front of large audiences. If the majority of the audience is not "moved' by the musical product, then in my opinion, that product is not a 19.5 in musical effect. Great music is usually fully recognized by both critic and public/audience. If a drum corps arranger writes a musical book that only receives "polite applause" throughout the entire program, it would be safe to deduce that perhaps the arrangement or original work left something to be desired or just did not communicate well to the audience. Finally, if design teams can step back and say "I think we have come up with a tremendous musical product" and the statement is actually true, they shouldn't have to worry about the critics (judges) or the audience.

GB

[LoveKathyG]

When the stakes are higher and the public spotlight and the pressures it brings are stronger, it's harder to be a purist, I think. It's also harder once you earn acclaim and respect to see them slip away. And that's when people like M. Night and a certain DivI corps director talk a game of having other priorities than mass popularity, but then almost can't help but express frustration when faced with public or critic disapproval. They understand and accept that not everyone will like what they're doing, but aren't so happy when the public attention becomes negative enough to perhaps get in the way of them reaching their goals. The fact is that if you are a movie or corps director, you are not the sole painter on the canvas. You do need help and support of other people, and when the acclaim turns against you, it can become harder to get where you want to be.

My take... If you want to be Mozart and thumb your nose at the establishment, great... In all sincerety, bully for you. But be prepared to die in a pauper's grave...or to be booed in Pasadena. It might not be right or fair to die poor or to suffer the angst of thousands of fans at the Rose Bowl, but you made choices that took you to where you are. If you want a different outcome, make different choices. As much as I miss Star, I respect the heck out of the decision they made to leave the activity. Their vision wasn't aligning with DCI's and fans' visions, and they made a different choice that worked out very well for them...and ultimately helped the activity too.

[stifled4mallettechnique]

My take... If you want to be Mozart and thumb your nose at the establishment, great... In all sincerety, bully for you. But be prepared to die in a pauper's grave...or to be booed in Pasadena. It might not be right or fair to die poor or to suffer the angst of thousands of fans at the Rose Bowl, but you made choices that took you to where you are. If you want a different outcome, make different choices. As much as I miss Star, I respect the heck out of the decision they made to leave the activity. Their vision wasn't aligning with DCI's and fans' visions, and they made a different choice that worked out very well for them...and ultimately helped the activity too.

At the risk of being too "old skool" in my response to this post....

[CuriousMe]

My take... If you want to be Mozart and thumb your nose at the establishment, great... In all sincerety, bully for you. But be prepared to die in a pauper's grave...or to be booed in Pasadena. It might not be right or fair to die poor or to suffer the angst of thousands of fans at the Rose Bowl, but you made choices that took you to where you are. If you want a different outcome, make different choices. As much as I miss Star, I respect the heck out of the decision they made to leave the activity. Their vision wasn't aligning with DCI's and fans' visions, and they made a different choice that worked out very well for them...and ultimately helped the activity too.

But wait....I thought that no one was booing the corps..... :sshh:

Folks are still playing Mozart, so he must have been doing something right. Personally, I'm glad he didn't decide to go for the least common denominator.

I certainly wouldn't let the opinion of a bunch of rude folks (adults for the most part) decide on where I march. I chose where I marched to please myself first, avoiding membership in a corps because rude people might not like it and then boo me...well to me, that would be the same as backing down to a bully.

If I were a show designer I would design for my corps first. I agree with the priority list I saw posted earlier...first design for the corps, then for the judges, and lastly for the guess at what will entertain the audience.

The other reality is that the folks who booed are not the only audience. I am part of the drum corps audience as well. Are folks really suggesting that in order for my opinion to count I have to start booing the shows that I don't care for?

[Einstein On The Beach]

Since the answer is so obvious, please ask the question you really want to ask. If it's "Don't you think I'm cool because I like artists that shun the public?", the answer is no. :P

Quite the contrary, actually. I'm not interested in the over intellectualization of or waxing pretentious when it comes to music, that takes it away from its true purpose.

Problem : Boston.....La Fiesta.....arranger took so many liberties with the original to attempt to create a different flavor/feel,

that the arrangement came across as "just ok", even though the corps performed very well....as this

happened, all I could think of was the "straight ahead" Maynard Ferguson arrangement for me is so

much more effective, and has been done very well by other drum corps (Devils/Muchachos), and I

wonder how much better they would have been playing an arrangement closer to the Maynard version...

On hand I kind of agree with you, their version of La Fiesta got chopped up A LOT. To their credit, had they done a regular "YEAH REAL DRUM CORPS, GIT THE POPCORN WOOOH!" version of La Fiesta I probably would've cried. Not tears of joy. I think it might mostly have to do with the fact that I hate Maynard Ferguson's music for the most part (except when he was with the Kenton orchestra, that hit is phenomenal). Honestly, I'm all for corps not doing straight forward "Oh I'll just copy from the original score and call it a day", sometimes the show calls for it and sometimes it doesn't. Considering that La Fiesta was representing the Surrealist period of Picasso's works, I see their intention. ANOTHER thing to their design team's credit, Boston's version of La Fiesta wasn't even based on the Maynard version. You know people, Maynard Ferguson really isn't the end all be all of music. He was a fat Canadian guy who made obnoxious, loud, trumpet music. Some of it was okay (see what I said before). Some of it was downright horrid. With that said, the Boston La Fiesta was based more around the original and mostly the Corea/Hancock live version that was recorded back in the mid-70s. By the way, if no one was aware that Chick Corea and Herbie Hancock recorded 2 live albums together, run, don't walk, to your nearest music store and BUY IT. It's amazing. Anyway, I still find that version of La Fiesta pretty satisfying, screaming trumpets, nice percussion feature, big fat park-n-blow, crazy drill, I think it worked. But hey, you don't think it did and that's perfectly cool too.

Music is art, and composers are artists. Yes, most professional composers do not sit there and write thinking "the crowd will buy this"....However, the most famous of composers were those who wrote brilliant music that was not only critically aclaimed by the "musical community" but well-received by the public. Orchestras don't still play "great standards" because they HAVE to....they do it because the music is great and the patrons of orchestras wish to hear those works. However, there is always room for new, GREAT compositions. Great music will stand the test of time; always has, always will.

Just for the record, Beethoven's music was panned by critics, especially the Choral Symphony (No. 9). Mahler ran into a lot of crap with "the musical community" as well. Actually, for the most part, all the greats did. Just because we love these guys now doesn't mean life and their music was just hunky-dory within the context of their living lives.

Drum corps is a musical "sport" played in front of large audiences. If the majority of the audience is not "moved' by the musical product, then in my opinion, that product is not a 19.5 in musical effect. Great music is usually fully recognized by both critic and public/audience. If a drum corps arranger writes a musical book that only receives "polite applause" throughout the entire program, it would be safe to deduce that perhaps the arrangement or original work left something to be desired or just did not communicate well to the audience. Finally, if design teams can step back and say "I think we have come up with a tremendous musical product" and the statement is actually true, they shouldn't have to worry about the critics (judges) or the audience.

GB

I agree 100%, but I think for the most part corps are achieving this.

[euponitone]

The other reality is that the folks who booed are not the only audience. I am part of the drum corps audience as well. Are folks really suggesting that in order for my opinion to count I have to start booing the shows that I don't care for?

Yes...and it's a good life lesson for the kids anyway. At least thats the message i got after all those debates...

[cowtown]

OK...this is a lot to digest...but let's see if I can make some simple points.

1. No...design teams aren't going to design for you. Because "the yous" are different in every seat in the audience. The populist approach never appeals to the artist UNLESS they are out to MAKE money. DCI is really not a profit minded entity. They are not-for-profit by their very nature. Think starving artist instead of rock star/producer pandering to the masses.

2. If you are unstatisfied...move on. It's your right. It's what your calling seems to be. Don't deny your calling. Go with it. You'll be far less frustrated. Free yourself. Take your body, soul, wealth, treasure, resources and ATTITUDE and go support DCA. They have a seat waiting for you to occupy. If DCI is so doomed as you say...well, we'll learn that lesson then won't we. You have a place that is begging for more fans...it's called DCA and lookie...there are discussion boards for that organization as well. Go...be happy. Life owes you an opportunity to be happy. Pursue happiness is a RIGHT guaranteed by our founders. I believe you should exercise your right.

Adios.

Meow –

That’s a rather glib, rude and misdirected response to my response but you did get to your point across and almost made it appear to be on-topic. Too bad you are wrong. Firstly, life owes me nothing. Secondly, I explained my intent, that I am vocal and fighting some of the trends and changes that I dislike because I’d rather stick around DCI than leave it. And how nice that you think DCI can afford to tell fans like me to get lost, that’s a luxury but one I think you are wrong about. I have proven myself over the years to DCI by spending the money and yet – I get guff from the likes of you, some 15 year olds kids with one live show under their belt, and even now by DIV 1 directors saying they don’t need me, they don’t want me, and good bye. Not really a way to grow this activity, is it? But often, the elitism (immaturity) that I see displayed by fans and members makes me wonder if growing this is really the goal or if they want to keep DCI as their private little summer bubble world, because that’s how they and you act. How many years has DCI been pandering to and trying to Bando drum corps? where are the last 20 years of age out bandos? Yeah, exactly, they are not there, some are but not many, a rather small %. I got in to drum corps as community based; most those fans are way more loyal than the newbie bandos for several reasons. Partly due to their motivations now for joining a corps (I never once put DC on a resume), their personal connections to the greater activity and frankly, many people in music simply don’t make the money to feed a family and travel to DCI every year.

See Tom, if I have a right to pressure my happiness, than I also have a right to try and maintain the aspect of DCI I like and exercise the aspects of DCI that I dislike in order to keep me happy. Because Drum corps does make me happy, albeit DCI does make me a little less happier than it did previously. And why do you think I don't see the local DCA corps?

I’d prefer you leave DCI for BOA, Tom (well not really, I don't care what you do and DCI need all the fans they can get so I'm just trying to make a point, personally, I'd rather you stick around DCI) and let DCI go back to being DCI - it’s not like DCI will miss the money you didn’t spend on finals this year, now will they? But of course, it’s all about you or *cough cough* the kids that you and so many others so eloquently misspeak for, ‘‘think the children”. and I think its all about me. Fine. But then again, I’m not telling someone they wrongly answered a ‘who should’ question and to leave the activity.

Edited September 6, 2007 by cowtown

[MikeD]

That’s a rather glib, rude and misdirected response to my response but you did get to your point across and almost made it appear to be on-topic. Too bad you are wrong. Firstly, life owes me nothing. Secondly, I explained my intent, that I am vocal and fighting some of the trends and changes that I dislike because I’d rather stick around DCI than leave it. And how nice that you think DCI can afford to tell fans like me to get lost, that’s a luxury but one I think you are wrong about. I have proven myself over the years to DCI by spending the money and yet – I get guff from the likes of you, some 15 years with one live show under their belt, and even DIV 1 directors saying they don’t need me, they don’t want me, good bye. Not really a way to grow this activity, is it? But often, the elitism (immaturity) that I see displayed by fans and members makes me wonder if growing this is really the goal or if they want to keep DCI as their private little summer bubble world, because that’s how they and you act? How many years have they been pandering to and trying to Bando drum corps, where are the last 20 years of age out bandos, often while willfully alienating, ignoring and taking for granted the ‘me’s’ of the activity? Yeah, exactly, they are not there. I got in to drum corps as community based; most those fans are way more loyal than the newbie bandos for several reasons. Partly due to their motivations now for joining a corps (I never once put DC on a resume), their personal connections to the greater activity and frankly, many people in music simply don’t make the money to feed a family and travel to DCI every year.

What YOU appear to want is for DCI to be your little bubble world by railing against changes that you happen to dislike. Drum corps is not the same as it was in 1964 when I started. Most of the 440 corps that existed in 1971 are gone...replaced by thousands of competing bands at all sorts of levels, from BOA Grand Nats to the smalles 'newbie' band competing for the first time. Personally, I'll take today, as far more kids are experiencing the competitive marching/music activity than ever...and the drum corps that are left provide an amazing summer exprience for members and audience...in all divisions.

[CuriousMe]

Meow –

That’s a rather glib, rude and misdirected response to my response but you did get to your point across and almost made it appear to be on-topic. Too bad you are wrong. Firstly, life owes me nothing. Secondly, I explained my intent, that I am vocal and fighting some of the trends and changes that I dislike because I’d rather stick around DCI than leave it. And how nice that you think DCI can afford to tell fans like me to get lost, that’s a luxury but one I think you are wrong about. I have proven myself over the years to DCI by spending the money and yet – I get guff from the likes of you, some 15 year olds kids with one live show under their belt, and even now by DIV 1 directors saying they don’t need me, they don’t want me, and good bye. Not really a way to grow this activity, is it? But often, the elitism (immaturity) that I see displayed by fans and members makes me wonder if growing this is really the goal or if they want to keep DCI as their private little summer bubble world, because that’s how they and you act. How many years has DCI been pandering to and trying to Bando drum corps? where are the last 20 years of age out bandos? Yeah, exactly, they are not there, some are but not many, a rather small %. I got in to drum corps as community based; most those fans are way more loyal than the newbie bandos for several reasons. Partly due to their motivations now for joining a corps (I never once put DC on a resume), their personal connections to the greater activity and frankly, many people in music simply don’t make the money to feed a family and travel to DCI every year.

See Tom, if I have a right to pressure my happiness, than I also have a right to try and maintain the aspect of DCI I like and exercise the aspects of DCI that I dislike in order to keep me happy. Because Drum corps does make me happy, albeit DCI does make me a little less happier than it did previously. And why do you think I don't see the local DCA corps?

I’d prefer you leave DCI for BOA, Tom (well not really, I don't care what you do and DCI need all the fans they can get so I'm just trying to make a point, personally, I'd rather you stick around DCI) and let DCI go back to being DCI - it’s not like DCI will miss the money you didn’t spend on finals this year, now will they? But of course, it’s all about you or *cough cough* the kids that you and so many others so eloquently misspeak for, ‘‘think the children”. and I think its all about me. Fine. But then again, I’m not telling someone they wrongly answered a ‘who should’ question and to leave the activity.

The folks who made the decisions you don't like are all corps directors. If you really think that you have the answers on how to grow DCI, why waste time here? Put your money where your mouth is and start a corps in your area. Become a director, and grow them to a member corps then you'll get a seat at the table (and a vote). There's no way to fight for what you want on this board.

Peace,

Cathie