Cadets

[ToferVis]

I agree with you...the use of narration in those shows was quite different. I still don't think there would've been as much negative feedback for the Cadets in 2007 if they had a different director or if George wasn't so public with his opinions. Right or wrong, some people heard the narration in the Cadets show and felt that it was George preaching to them. Some people have very strong opinions about George and apparently aren't shy about expressing them and the kids suffered for it. And I don't think that would've happened had George not been so public about his views.

I could see that very much so. But also in my opinion, the kids who march cadets know it's coming, or at least i would hope so.

ALSO while i'm thinking whoever said why would someone who's providing an educational setting put those kids in that position...last timed i check..everything you LEARN educational doesn't happen at a show.

[madscout96]

...

And if drum corps is art, who are we to determine what is artistic and what's not? Just enjoy the show! :)

Who are we? We're the audience.

Performing arts, particularly those that sell tickets in order to survive, do not exist in a vacuum. There has to be some sort of communication between performer and audience. The art must speak to the audience member on some level. The performer must reach their audience with their performance. And the performer must know the audience for which they are performing.

A musical genius could compose an incredibly complex, intelligent, sophisticated piece of music for an orchestra, and it might win some awards. But if it doesn't touch people beyond the composer and a few of his/her colleagues, no orchestra will program it beyond maybe a world premiere. And even then they'd program some Mozart and Tchaikovsky or something like that that everyone loves to make sure the audience gets their money's worth. That reminds me of my aunt who sometimes would go to see the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. One time she went and told me about it afterwards, and she said, "I learned that if the composer is still alive and they bring him out on the stage, I already know I'm not going to like the music".

Who is she to judge, though? She's part of the audience, that's who.

Edited May 28, 2008 by madscout96

[madscout96]

And if you look, I didn't dispute that George has done a lot for the activity, and nowhere did I blame him for the ills of drum corps today.

The first year, 05, no he couldn't predict the heckling. By 06, he should have known it was coming, and last year it should have been expecting, and honestly, at times, his comments all but egg his critics on.

his reaction on his blog last year after the quarters mess helped not one bit. he never owned up to the fact the booing was all about him and his bow, instead he chose to say people hurt the kids, yet never once owned up for the fact they heard boos because of him.

like him or hate him, he's done good things. But the kids end up getting crap that solely is due to him as well. To me, that's not fair to the kids, nor is it a good environment

I agree with everything except the 3rd paragraph. He did come out on his blog a day or so after "Hashgate" and say it was a mistake to bow.

[The Other Mike]

After seeing the remark about rodeo behavior several times, it's made me wonder if Mr. Hopkins is way ahead of all of us here.

He knows how to work a crowd just like Jim McMan ( or whatever that wrestling guy's name is)

Seems Americans ( myself included) love to hate something and he serves it up right in our face so to speak.

In a country where fake wrestling outsells opera and going to the symphony because it works people into a frenzy, he might be a whole lot smarter than I gave him credit for.

I've never been to a rodeo, nascar or wrestling, but I have stayed at a Motel 6 once...............

Just a passing thought that doesn't really matter

Hello ?

< tap tap tap >

Hello?

is this thing on ?

[George82]

You may not like the narration (I rarely do myself) but I fail to see how it's existence keeps you from discussing great performers. Maybe that is not what you are saying, but that is how your post came across.

well said

[skewerz]

go away for 3 days, and look what happens....ok...here we go....

With all due respect, Hopkins is not looking to be controversal; He's looking to be cutting edge.

Those who dislike voice for the sake of disliking voice will probably not like the show. But those willing to keep their mind open, may find that he's come up with something amazing this year, with voice.

Hopkins is looking to be controversial...and it's not cutting edge.

Those that espouse people to be open-minded are close-minded about their antagonists view point...

all cuts on Hop and narration aside, look at the recaps...where it should be reflected ( if taken into account at all) was strong. it was brass and perc that hurt them.

now...did they focus too much on it...dunno, maybe. but narration didn't hurt their scores.

and if it had been properly judged, it would have hurt them bunches...the judges have no way to know how to judge narration. That's one reason why George still uses it. If there was a chance it would actually lower his score, he' drop it like a really hot uh....thingy...

First Drum Corps show 1976. I have not missed a summer since. I'm not a huge fan of narration but, I dont think in the Cadets final product that the narration really stepped on the horn parts. They did a good job of not doing just that. I never had any problem "hearing" all the parts. I said in one post earlier I guess it just takes a good ear. I found some of it corny but it never distracted me from the music.

Doesn't take a good ear...just takes the ability to filter out the sophomoric talking. Some of us aren't wired to do that. Believe me, if I could, I would.

Do you really think that Hopkins wrote that show in order to insult people? I think he wrote it to push the voice concept to another place and to win.

yes....and I think if narration wasn't used, BD would have finished in second...buy hey, I'm weird.

You honestly feel that Hopkins, who has spent decades building the Cadets, Crossmen, YEA and USSBA, whose entire livelihood is centered around this activity... is intentionally trying to alienate people??

yes...He knows it's gonna get boo'd, yet he still does it, and then he complains about people booing his "kids". Easy way to fix it...don't do the thing that people are gonna boo at...

Narration is a tool available to show designers

bubble gum is a tool available to bridge builders, but aside from Minnesota, it's not widely used, or in fact encouraged by those using said bridges.

Actually, I think they did release an early performance sans narration last year.

However, why would that be something desired at all? It's like saying "What a shame we can't experience all shows both with and without the trumpets...or the snares...or the baritone...or...any other element to actually see how many people need those elements."

Have 3 different drum corps shows....

1. All that's played is music...standstill.....people will pay to hear it...not as many as a regular show, but many would pay.

2. All that happens is the drill...no music...some people would pay...maybe

3. all that happens is the narration....cricket, cricket.

the MUSIC is the most important part of any drum corps show. Last year, Cadets shoved narration down our throats, and the music became secondary....hence, the intense dislike...

Why? Narration has been a valid part of a musical presentation for a loooong time.

sure it has...other forms of musical presentation...why can't drum corps be unique? why must it be bastardized into something that already exists?

George is the scapegoat/excuse (again!) for people wanting to act like they are at a rodeo instead of at a musical event.

change "scapegoat/excuse" to "reason" and it's a true statement.

The only way to guarantee booing continues is if people keep doing it. How George handles himself is one thing. How people who disagree with his positions react to him are an entirely different thing. Again, personal responsibility for one's actions is a good thing.

Alas, George isn't doing his part to help eliminate booing. If you hit me, expect to get hit back. Throwing narration in our face is a "punch", so if we "punch" back, who is at fault? (ok, both of us are, but you can't throw a second punch if the first one never flies)

The idiots who boo are the culprits, not George and The Cadets staff.

the idiots who design a show they KNOW is going to get boo'd are the culprits. Booing is a reaction to an unfavorable action.

George Hopkins has done some INCREDIBLE things for kids and drum corps. The problem is, he knows it. He's like the super-hot chick that knows she's super-hot, and doesn't give a fig about what others think about her snotty, self-righteous, arrogant attitude. She can get by on her looks, and she knows it. George knows kids are going to come to the Cadets because, well, they are the Cadets. The kids know what they are getting into when they join the Cadets, just like guys know what they are getting into when they date the super-hot chick. In both cases, a vast amount of intelligence is going to be gained by the kids/guys...some of it good, and some of it bad.

Narration is what it is....narration. In my opinion, it has no place in a drum corps presentation. Drum corps is about music. People wonder why others get so upset about narration in drum corps. Drum corps is a PASSION. Drum corps isn't one of those things that you can look at and go....ehhh..it's ok. You either love it, or it's just marching band. Nothing inspires disagreement more than messing with someone's passion. If you looked at numbers....(yes, Mike, I'm gonna spout off numbers off the top of my head, that will most likely be disdained because they have no basis in merit or fact...) I would GUESS (that's right..guessing...*gasp*) that there MAY be 5% of people that really like drum corps that also really like narration...I'll even bump that up to 10% if that will make everyone happy. I would also guess that there is at LEAST a good 40% that pretty much despise narration in drum corps. That leaves 50% of the people that can deal with it, don't care, or can block it out during a show. You can look at that as....wow...60% of the people like narration! Or, you can look at that as OMG! 90% of the people can live without narration....

We have done poll after poll about narration, woodwinds, etc, and the incredibly vast majority have been against narration..upwards of 79% hating the Cadets 2007 show, just because of narration. Now, I know we've had the upcoming discussion of.."well, this is just dcp'ers...they aren't the real drum corps fans, etc, etc." Face it...we ARE the drum corps fans. The kids in the corps....the parents/relatives of kids in the corps, and dcp'ers. We are more than just a blip on the radar. We are a fairly accurate gallup poll of what people think of drum corps. If anything, dcp is probably more pro-narration than the normal people that don't post. It's always those in the minority that yell (post) the loudest.

Frankly, I think narration is just a crutch, because someone is out of ideas. It's not creative, it's additional.

edit..had to change my last 3 quotes to BOLDS, as apparently I exceeded the quote box limits...

Edited May 28, 2008 by skewerz

[NR_Ohiobando]

As a side-note, this on-going argument reminds me WAAAY too much of the " 'Under God'/'In God We Trust' in the Pledge of Allegiance/US Currency" argument.

The words "In God We Trust"/"Under God" were ADDED into our country's Pledge and Currency in 1954. We did not originally have those words in the pledge/$$$. A great majority(I think 70%) of Americans are Christian, and that doesn't even include other theists who also worship "God". Therefore, a lot of people accepted it without question. Perhaps it's because people could "filter it out" of their everyday lives, or because people who disagreed with it were not taken seriously. It's become more controversial nowadays, because incidents happen that take away the rights of citizens. For example, a teenager in a High School was either Expelled or Suspended from a PUBLIC school for NOT saying the Lord's Prayer, and instead reciting the Pledge(without "Under God") before a basketball game, a direct violation of her right to have her own beliefs.

Compare that to Narration. ADDED into DCI's rules in 2004 even though we didn't originally have them. Narration had been around in marching arts for about a decade(I'm guessing) and also other concert music, so it's not like it was anything new. Therefore, a lot of people accepted it without question. Perhaps it's because people could "filter it out" of their viewing of the shows, or because people who disagreed with it were not taken seriously. It's become more controversial nowadays because of it's growing use during a higher percentage of the show being performed(it's getting harder to "filter it out"). Prime examples Cadets 2006-2007 and BD 2005. People are upset because it disrupts their ability/right to enjoy a drum corps show.

Mind you, there is a HUGE difference between these two situations(with one being completely ILLEGAL and all), but you can see how hard it is to argue and completely convince either side of the argument. People become incredibly upset when their passionate rights get disrupted.

Title of Cadets 2008 program: "Pursuit of Happiness"

HOORAY IRONY.

Edited May 28, 2008 by NR_Ohiobando

[LandoC]

Who are we? We're the audience.

Performing arts, particularly those that sell tickets in order to survive, do not exist in a vacuum. There has to be some sort of communication between performer and audience. The art must speak to the audience member on some level. The performer must reach their audience with their performance. And the performer must know the audience for which they are performing.

A musical genius could compose an incredibly complex, intelligent, sophisticated piece of music for an orchestra, and it might win some awards. But if it doesn't touch people beyond the composer and a few of his/her colleagues, no orchestra will program it beyond maybe a world premiere. And even then they'd program some Mozart and Tchaikovsky or something like that that everyone loves to make sure the audience gets their money's worth. That reminds me of my aunt who sometimes would go to see the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. One time she went and told me about it afterwards, and she said, "I learned that if the composer is still alive and they bring him out on the stage, I already know I'm not going to like the music".

Who is she to judge, though? She's part of the audience, that's who.

You're advocating ignorance. All the pieces in the standard orchestral repertoire were once new. All elements of drum corps were once new. It's a shame that our society does not appreciate new artistic endeavors as they did in Mozart's time.

[LandoC]

"bubble gum is a tool available to bridge builders, but aside from Minnesota, it's not widely used, or in fact encouraged by those using said bridges."

Wow. That comment was unfortunate.

[Legalhack]

Frankly, I think narration is just a crutch, because someone is out of ideas. It's not creative, it's additional.

As an old professor typically answered when confronted with an "Isn't it so . . . ." question, "It depends."

When it comes to communicating themes, I am part of the "Play it, don't say it" crowd. However, judging by the reaction of my niece (age 10 at the time and attending only her second show ever) at finals, I think the Bluecoats' "Drop your weapons" moment was clever and effective -- she kept repeating the line. It's difficult to imagine how it would have worked better without narration.