euponitone Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 And Pioneer will not catch Troopers. And the bottom 6 Finals corps (Boston, BK, Colts, Glass, Coats, Stars) will not catch the top 6 corps (Cavies, BD, Phantom, Cadets, SCV, Crown). See how predictable it all is?Aren't you all getting tired of the same ol judging and the same ol judges? Lol....since when are the Bluecoats a 'bottom 6 corps'. Im no bloo honk, but if your going to call slotting, at least get it right. A corps that beat everyone last year at some point at least deserves better than that. By your logic, there should be an untouchable top 7, and then maybe a bottom 5, if you really want to get picky. *maybe the coats arent that good this year, or maybe boston and bk are better... I think that would be cool, but lets see what the slotting allows ...* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 This is kind of the nature of the DCI beast for now. Once judging changed in the mid-80's to emphasize show design more and "ticks" (or visible/audible errors) less, there evolved a kind of equilibrium in the drum corps universe. It's harder to break into the top because the top generally has a greater lock on two things: talent and forward momentum in design and retention/attraction of highly trained members. If a corps wants to move up, these two things need the most attention. (along with focusing on program weaknesses, whatever they may be.) At the very top...IMO it's not even a change from ticks to total buildup. BD, since 1975, have only been as low as 5th one time...and that covers ticks as well as "no ticks". SCV was at the top through the 70's and only had one 7th spot until through 1989, covering both eras as well. Cadets, once they made it back in the early 80's, near the end of the tick era, have remained in the top echelon as well. Madison, from 73 through the end of the 90's, were also consistently a high-placing corps, again spanning both judginjg systems. IMO it's just that the top stay strong throughout their organizations, resulting in a high level of success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMelson Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 QUOTE (RMelson @ Jun 23 2008, 10:21 AM) A breif analysis of Super Bowl pairings will reveal that out of the 30 NFL teams, almost 75% of the teams have an honest shot at making the Super Bowl....parity, salary caps, free agency, etc. make it a fairly level playing field...I just don't see that with DCI Pro football players also get paid millions of dollars Meanwhile, drum corps members, the vast majority of which are still in school, pay thousands of dollars. If you want a level playing field then come up with ways to bring the bottom up, not the top down. The level of excellence is what makes drum corps so much fun to watch. I'd rather watch BD, Cadets, and Cavies be really freakin good and then have everyone else not be as good than have everyone be the on the same level as a 10th place corps. Sorry for the confusion.....no way am I suggesting the playing field needs to be leveled and the only reason I mentioned the NFL was in response to another posting concerning predicting who plays in the Super Bowl each year. No question, Corps who work the hardest and play the best should be at the top....It seems to me...a true novice...the Judges automaticlly place certain Corps at the top all the time.....Maybe they are always the best.....It just seems sometimes...even at a minor show...one of the "lower" rank corps could win....I just don't see that happening...ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyushujet Posted June 23, 2008 Author Share Posted June 23, 2008 Well, look at a few from the past 10 years or so...Crown went from 10th in 2001 to 16th in 2002...and two years later were 7th, in 2004. Boston was 15th in 1998 and 5th two years later, 2000. Glassmen, OTOH, were 5th in 2001 and 14th in 2003. Madison was 6th in 05, 9th in 06 and 15th in 07....14th in 02 and 8th in 03...pretty large swings, IMO. Blue Knights went from 6th in 2000 to 14th in 2001. Since you made mention of the Colts... Look at the Colts in the 90's...went from 20th in 1992 to finals in 93 (12th) and as high as 9th in 1995. Nice post Mike. Your examples kind of shoots holes in my theory, doesn't it? But your post brings up other questions. How did those corps in your examples leap to glory or fall from grace? Were there drastic staff changes or other dramatic happenings behind the scenes for each corps those years? For instance when SCV lost Gail Royer, SCV was placing as low as 7th for 2 years. That was quite a shock for us back then since they were consistently a top 3 corps through the 80s. That would be like BD placing 7th in the next two years in modern day terms. I know every large group has to deal with the unpleasantness of politics. I often wonder though if our DCI judges can put aside their personal ties with the activity and truly judge each corps objectively and without bias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 (edited) Well, look at a few from the past 10 years or so...Crown went from 10th in 2001 to 16th in 2002...and two years later were 7th, in 2004. Boston was 15th in 1998 and 5th two years later, 2000. Glassmen, OTOH, were 5th in 2001 and 14th in 2003. Madison was 6th in 05, 9th in 06 and 15th in 07....14th in 02 and 8th in 03...pretty large swings, IMO. Blue Knights went from 6th in 2000 to 14th in 2001. Since you made mention of the Colts... Look at the Colts in the 90's...went from 20th in 1992 to finals in 93 (12th) and as high as 9th in 1995. I'm trying to think of the last time an East Coast Corps beat The Cadets. I 'm thinking it probably was the Crossmen ....maybe a decade or so ago ?...... maybe the late 90's or so ? East Coast Corps prior to the last decade used to go back and forth sharing the top spot..... among lots of different corps and at different stages. Now there are just 3 DCI World Class Division Corps left. The Cadets, and the Boston Crusaders, Carolina Crown on the Atlantic eastern seaboard . And I don't see either the Crusaders or Crown beating The Cadets this year to change that and spice things up a bit competitively. It's just hard to crack the top 3 or 4 spots consistently these days. For ANY but the usual Corps we see at the top except when they have perhaps one rebuilding year every decade or so. Edited June 23, 2008 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 First off...the NFL players are professionals getting paid a lot of $$$ to play. The entire structure of how the NFL works is different from DCI...the draft being #1...players just can not go with the team they wish as happens in drum corps. The salary cap also plays some role in creating parity. You just can't relate the two organizations in any real way, IMO. So you're saying that we can't compare "marching music's major league" to a major league? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Nice post Mike. Your examples kind of shoots holes in my theory, doesn't it? But your post brings up other questions. How did those corps in your examples leap to glory or fall from grace? Were there drastic staff changes or other dramatic happenings behind the scenes for each corps those years? For instance when SCV lost Gail Royer, SCV was placing as low as 7th for 2 years. That was quite a shock for us back then since they were consistently a top 3 corps through the 80s. That would be like BD placing 7th in the next two years in modern day terms. I'll let someone else do THAT research! In general, I do think that staff/admin longevity and good succession planning for change helps minimize the impact of changes, and the corps at the top seem to do a good job of this, as they do with most things. I know every large group has to deal with the unpleasantness of politics. I often wonder though if our DCI judges can put aside their personal ties with the activity and truly judge each corps objectively and without bias. I would think so. I haven't judged drum corps since 1990 (two DCA shows)...but I have judged over 250 band and corps shows in total over time, since my first in 1976. I truly think that if a judge has a mindset that he or she is judging the performers, it doesn't matter at all what the group is they are judging. That's how I approach it, anyway. Over time I judged many groups I had been involved with as either marching member, staff member, and even director. I really did not care who the group was...I was judging performers. Of course, I can't speak for any of the DCI judges, but I really can't think of too many times I disagreed all that much with the placements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 So you're saying that we can't compare "marching music's major league" to a major league? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommytimp Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Are examples from 25 years ago really the best you can do? For you, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 For you, yes. Classy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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