hornlines 08

[wvu80]

WOW - about the rudest thing I have seen on DCP in a long time on some many different levels, how could you say that to someone publicly? And why would you try and take that away from them?

You just showed me something mr yeaguy, something I don’t respect and will never respect …it’s best I leave it at that

With all due respect, you are exhibiting exactly the kind of public disrespect you claim to be complaining about.

Haters are not hard to spot, or to figure out.

[mad_scotty]

With all due respect, you are exhibiting exactly the kind of public disrespect you claim to be complaining about.

Haters are not hard to spot, or to figure out.

the two of you should go to a corner and point at each other for a while, till you get tired of this

[wesleyrp]

No really, how does BK, Colts, Glassmen, Blue Stars, Madison, Crossmen sound? WE tend to always hype on the big dogs, with good reason, but not much is ever said about these other fine groups! We can't get the benefit of seeing brass scores nightly and so far reviews have been few and far between, so how do these corps sound? I am going to do something you guys can't believe and ask for their volume/impact intonation, and balance/blend ! This should cover my basis and maybe we can discuss hornlines and the sounds they are making in '08? ha ha ha ha!! GO EVIL KNIGHTS!!!!

Wes Perkins

BK '97 '98

[I play the baritone good]

is Parker the soloist this year? anyone know?

That's what I've been told.

[Triple Forte]

The whole premise of this thread is such a disappointment to me. I understand - "loud" hornlines are fun to listen to and it's great to have your facial hair peeled off your face from a screaming trumpet player. But - here is my question:

The mentality of almost every other section of the modern drum corps has developed to be cerebral and intelligent in ways of design and execution EXCEPT the hornline. Why is that?

I realize - YES, we have B-flat horns now and YES we have 3-4 button tubas and whatever - I understand the actual developments in the equipment. But the end expectation is still the same: louder. While loud is good, a characteristic sound is better. I can't tell you how many talented euphonium and trombone players treat their marching baritone like a bass trumpet. There are so many occasions where I'll hear a tuba player red line his/her sound and distort rather than resonate. If only all of our mellophone players truly treated the instrument as what it can be: an alto voice with a beautiful french horn sound. Can it not be done? Refer to Cavaliers 2005 - incredible french horn sound from those mellophones.

Our hornline caption heads are constantly searching for talented instrumentalists from colleges and universities. However, the drum corps industry is in a constant fight of validity from music professors. Why? If I were a trumpet professor and I heard 95% of the drum corps today forcing sound, I'd can the idea of drum corps altogether. Advocates of loud over characteristic sound will make all sorts of excuses - "this is not an orchestra" or "this is how drum corps is supposed to sound" or "marching instruments are designed for this sort of playing" - the list goes on and on, as I'm sure it will after I press "Add reply".

As a music educator, my goal would be for the drum corps organizations to promote music and educate show-goers on what a quality brass ensemble should sound like. Indoor playing characteristics should be the same as outdoor playing characteristics. Volume can be different - for sure - but the physical way you perceive your own sound should NOT change when you step on the football field.

Ok, so - I realize to this point, most people have read this post and thought, what an egotistical conservatory ########. You'd be surprised to find quite the opposite. I've just chosen to prefer a brass sound that is acceptable to educators and experts in the field of music education and performance.

To adapt a Wynton Marsalis quote: "The sound most drum corps hornlines may make us feel good, like a candy bar feels good, but there's no nutrition. The foundation of any music education cannot be found in "louder and higher". That’s not how you train the ears of a musician or even a non-musician. That’s not how you lead kids into a deeper understanding of who they are or who they will be, which is even more important. We’re depriving them of a fundamental part of their educational development, and our nation is really much poorer for it." -> it may be a stretch, but there are some valid points in there.

Please, discuss my comments if you wish - but do so in a cerebral fashion. The "you suck" or whatever is funny, but it's also a reflection of the replyer. If you have something to say, make it a college answer - maybe you might even change my mind - if you are convincing enough!

The only thing I would like to say is that a marching unit sporting 70+ brass players.......better have a "Bigger" and more powerful sound then what could be heard from a strong 45 - 50 member brassline. Sometimes I have found it is not the case. I don't like loud for loud sake and/or a crass sound at all.....believe me. I also don't like "Safe"

Maybe a percussion judge (Jeff Propserie) said it best in 2004 when he said "It did not distort but it is right on that edge. Sometimes that's where music belongs.....not safe....but expressive".

There is a very famous brass guy in DCI who has said.......Perfection before expression. Logical question...if there is no such thing as perfection...when does the expression kick in ??

Edited June 26, 2008 by Triple Forte

[Presque Isle Brass]

No really, how does BK, Colts, Glassmen, Blue Stars, Madison, Crossmen sound? WE tend to always hype on the big dogs, with good reason, but not much is ever said about these other fine groups!

Hi!

I thought I better put in a final word on my part for this thread - as so promised in my last message.

To start, I think the Blue Knights sound of the last few years has been stellar. However, I cannot speak for this year - I've only heard things on the internet, and that gives no justice.

Additionally - it's great to see the level of debate on this topic. Some people chimed in with passionate answers based on experiences and readings, etc. Often times I'll log on to DCP just to find offensive and obnoxious comments - which, I too, have participated in! But, it's nice to use the noodle once in awhile. Of course, I got a kick out of the big candy bars. Good interpretation!

So, the final point that I want to make is this:

Just as in Suzuki uses the "mother-tongue" method to assist young violin students find a proper sound, brass students should use the same emulative method to find their proper or characteristic sound. Arguments that advocate the idea that no true "characteristic" sound exists have a valid argument, but the overall idea is to establish a good sound before moving on to add responsibilities. In the marching world, we learn in a step-by-step (pun intended?) process. First, the posture. Then, walking in time. After that, learn to apply style. The list goes on! However, in order to achieve a successful uniform look - you must be sure the established technique is achieved to a certain level before you move on. The same is true with ensemble playing - concert, jazz, marching, drum corps - the idea is universal.

In order to create music as an ensemble, you must move together. The first step, if you will, is establishing a characteristic sound that represents the instrument well. The best models are professional players that have success in the world of performance. People like Wynton, Bergeron, Steven Mead, Warren Deck, Robert King - or from whomever you model your sound - are the current definition of what is proper in the realm of their instrument.

Without the model, you are throwing darts in the dark. Using "common sense" to find a good sound out of your horn is too broad and general - especially when trying to establish a uniform "DCI Hornline" sound. This idea is not mine - it is Arnold Jacobs - "Make the tuba is your hand sound like the tuba in your head."

That being said, where I feel we fail more than we succeed is the development of this sound as a hornline. In my opinion, the constant push to be louder than the next corps causes instructors to rush to the development of effects - like volume, etc. Whereas, if more time was spent developing the ensemble sound - matching every aspect of wind playing from player to player across the ensemble - then you'd end up being louder. Real volume is achieved by matching sound and moving together as an ensemble. Volume is just an effect applied to a strong development of ensemble characteristic sound.

So, I do not think all corps should sound the same - they could use different models and interpret sound differently. What I think should be avoided is forcing a sound through your instrument that defies the design of the horn. The instrument has a variety of sounds that are acceptable, but universally we all understand what going past our best sound is - not correct!!

In closing, to answer some specific questions. I do believe that 95% of drum corps today rush the development of the ensemble sound. Of course, that figure is not calculated but estimated. There are a handful of drum corps that I'd want the "experts" to judge DCI on. After all, we are trying to broaden our market, right? Why not have positive exposure rather than exposure that might put doubt in the minds of those who play professionally.

I do feel like hornlines have improved from the 80's to present - but I feel the outcome is still distorted a bit. Some corps are focused on creating a good sound before trying to achieve higher levels of volume. Most are focused more on volume (with some thought of quality sound...but not enough, in my opinion).

Finally, the idea of rebuilding your chops at the end of the summer in preparation for your next semester of school should not exist! After 85+ days on tour with some of the most talented young brass players in the United States, your chops should be developed to a point of success. A break will be needed for the health of your face, for sure - but not a complete "rebuild". If you are feeling pain in your face, your body is telling you to stop - not play louder!

So - thanks to all for responding critically to my first question. I realize that sidebars have formed and lots of words were thrown, but to those who transcended the "usual" and put thought and time into your response - thanks so much! I've learned a lot about how you think - and it helps me understand why some choose to feel the way they do about drum corps.

OK - time for me to go to bed!

PS: YEAguy was just trying to defend the image of his organization. While he may have been forward about it, he is not alone. The director of an organization of which I belonged stated directly not to use the corps name in our signatures, screen names, etc. The corps name is a brand and those who are dedicated to the brand must defend the reputation for themselves and for their board. The decision to say something was totally, in my opinion, valid. Perhaps it could have been handled in a PM setting - but perhaps the public notice also helps people realize that the organization does not stand for such rhetoric!! I think you and I would do the same given the shoes of a person in YEAguy's position.

[euponitone]

Hey guys - I appreciate people rushing to my defense, but its really not necessary. I've sent Hop a PM, and we'll talk whenever he gets time. It was just a misunderstanding of a joke, and given that he doesnt hang here 5 hours a day, I'm not surprised that he took it that way. We'll work it out

[chaos001]

love will keep us together

[Kekkles]

Hey guys - I appreciate people rushing to my defense, but its really not necessary. I've sent Hop a PM, and we'll talk whenever he gets time. It was just a misunderstanding of a joke, and given that he doesnt hang here 5 hours a day, I'm not surprised that he took it that way. We'll work it out

it looked horrible on his part no matter what "official statements" are put out.

[camel lips]

I understand - "loud" hornlines are fun to listen to and it's great to have your facial hair peeled off your face from a screaming trumpet player.

Who has those in DCI >>>??????????