Intimidation vs. Leadership

[oldtimedrummer]

I was at Phantom's practice the other day and heard the head visual guy say that if some of the guard made the same mistake in the show that night they would do about 50 laps at the next practice. I don't have a problem with this. Drum Corps prepares kids for real life, not for the girl scouts. When I marched it was much tougher. We got screamed at regularly. I remember getting kicked in the a** literally, because I was about a foot behind a line. I never did it again. The work world was easy after that. I heard the Troopers in the 60's used make their kids practice in leg irons to get the size of step the same. A kid fell down, broke his nose. They made him finish the practice bloody before they looked at it. I don't know if this was all true, but guess who won marching every year. Corps members have it easy today. Yes, I know, and I used to have to walk to school 10 miles in 5 feet of snow too.

Corps members have it easy today? I really don't agree with that statement. I believe the kids today work harder than we ever did, but, that's just my opinion. People are motivated either through fear or desire. The whole running lap thing is attempt to keep someone from making a mistake out of fear. IMO, a much healthier approach is to try to create a desire to do it correctly. "Do it correct three times in a row and we go to dinner break 10 min early." I believe creating desire in students is crucial to achievement.

[84BDsop]

In the end, with the level of marcher / player in the top, say, 4 or 5 corps being pretty consistent, I think BD's success itself speaks volumes about what I saw as their self-policing, more-laid-back teaching technique.

And after hearing other corps' horror stories for years, I REALLY appreciate BD's methods!!

Besides....I canNOT see Tom Float going off on a swearing tear....he was so laid back (at least the times I dealt with him, as I was in the horn line) he was practically horizontal!

[The Other Mike]

Agree. Our band has just that setup...each newbie gets a senior as a big brother/sister. My daughter's big sister from freshman year (2000) is still one of very best friends...in fact, she spent 16 days in Ghana last year visiting her,as she was in the Peace Corps at the time.

The girl that was my daughter's little sister in 2003 still calls her and they hang together whenever possible.

Oh nooooooooooooooo, you know what this means ?

I wonder if Saten has his cold weather gear on.

[RickCogley]

Corps members have it easy today? I really don't agree with that statement. I believe the kids today work harder than we ever did, but, that's just my opinion. People are motivated either through fear or desire. The whole running lap thing is attempt to keep someone from making a mistake out of fear. IMO, a much healthier approach is to try to create a desire to do it correctly. "Do it correct three times in a row and we go to dinner break 10 min early." I believe creating desire in students is crucial to achievement.

I agree. I think they have it hard. The physical demands are huge. As for the "desire to do it correctly" point oldtimedrummer is making, in Defenders, our caption head would tell us "play this runthrough tick-less and you go home" so we would push hard to do it, but if we ticked, we restarted off the line. That was a hard thing to do, because there was usually someone who would let down their guard a second and tick, but, it was good to have done. We did get to get out of rehearsal early a couple of times, too!

Cheers,

Rick

Edited July 7, 2008 by RickCogley

[The Other Mike]

By the way, I marched in the era of canoe paddles in the hands of the drill instructors and even though I only got the paddle once ( 10 home run swings on my fat ### for being 2 minutes late to the field), I took pride one night a few years later in breaking the paddles into splinters on a fence post somewhere in Pa. ( after seeing a kid abused )

I can still feel the sting of that paddle 35 years later and I thought I had forgotten all about that

My God, today this would be considered assult and people arrested. Talk about a different era ?

( I guess that is a reason I'm not so shocked at people yelling ? )

And I know the two corps I marched in were not the only corps to use them.

[27Socal]

Corps members have it easy today? I really don't agree with that statement. I believe the kids today work harder than we ever did, but, that's just my opinion. People are motivated either through fear or desire. The whole running lap thing is attempt to keep someone from making a mistake out of fear. IMO, a much healthier approach is to try to create a desire to do it correctly. "Do it correct three times in a row and we go to dinner break 10 min early." I believe creating desire in students is crucial to achievement.

I never said anything about how hard the kids work. I was talking about the negative motivation we had to go thru vs. the mostly positive motivation that exists today. That aspect is much easier today for the kids. I think the top corps in the past worked just as hard as the top corps today. The difference is the shows are much more physically demanding today. You basically have to be a semi-pro athlete today. For example, water breaks. We never took a water break in the 11 years that I marched. Not one. You bought a coke at burger king after practice. That was it. There was no such thing as a food truck.

Edited July 7, 2008 by 27Socal

[The Other Mike]

We never took a water break in the 11 years that I marched. Not one. You bought a coke at burger king after practice. That was it. There was no such thing as a food truck.

I remember having smoke breaks when a few people would actually go look for water somewhere.

[Galen]

Wayne is pretty laid back though, definitely not like other Cadets staff. Maybe he was different at Cap Reg, but it can't be that much of a difference.

From what I remember, Wayne was mostly involved in an admin/design/consultant capacity. I think he only worked directly with the hornline a few times during the year, most notably during Allentown. And I do recall that he was fairly laid-back, but I could still read a good deal of intense focus in him. It just didn't jump out at you like some intense staff members have a way of doing.

[Galen]

I agree, Matt, thanks. Do you feel like the changeover year was more positive overall, or did you guys lose some of the members who could've come back the next season?

Hard to tell- '03 was my ageout year and I didn't see the corps that much the following season- in fact I think I only saw them live once or twice. I can't comment on who stayed and who left- but it may be worth noting that they had their best competitive season in '04.

[justgin]

Ginger, that's a really valuable perspective, coming from someone who actually marched AND is now a parent. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Since age ranges vary greatly within a given corps, do you feel that has any influence (or should) on instructional methods? I'd imagine college age folks would want to be treated like young adults: having expectations explained to them and allowing them to take responsibility for their performance. The younger members would probably bear a little more scrutiny/instruction, and that opens up a whole other sense of how they should be treated. Do you have any thoughts?

I think that like any other instructional or educational activity, HOPEFULLY the adults in the equation keep age/experience in mind when deciding how to deliver their criticism. Like the difference between "you're late on count 8" and "you're grabbing too far down the pole, so the rotation is taking longer for you and making you late on count 8". Realistically, it probably isn't differentiated near as much as it should be, but on the other hand, most of us teach like we were taught, so it's somewhat of a vicious cycle.......in either direction.

I think (from my experience) the difference in the experience for the kids comes from the motivation for why the staff members are there in the first place. If they're there because they really want to teach, pass along their passion for the activity, for performing, etc., the kids they teach will most likely go away with good memories, even if they were corrected every single day they were there. If they're there for more selfish reasons, the memories for the kids will be more about the yelling, the competitiveness, etc. Or they go home and realize later that all of their fond memories are from their time on the bus, in the parking lot, etc......not where they spent the majority of their time, on the field itself.

When I started teaching school, I had a wonderful principal to guide me who gave me the best advice ever. She told me that no matter what, no matter how hard the day was, no matter how tired you are and how much you just want to pull your hair out and scream at them, you have to always keep in mind that you CHOSE this job, and your job is to SERVE your students, not the other way around. Granted, serving them may mean being tough with them when they need boundaries or pushing them when they think they can't give any more. But as long as they know that the motivation is truly to serve them and give them that indescribable feeling of achievement, they may not reach the goals you hoped for, but they'll always feel like their time and effort was well spent. If I could, it would be the one thing I'd always want to pass on to the young instructors I encounter.

Sorry to ramble.........it's late and my internal editor doesn't work so well when I need sleep!