2000s - New Era of Phenomenal Hornlines

[DevTrev]

Yeah, I have to clock in on this on too. You're welcome to your own opinion and I can see that being an opinion when you have The Cadets at a possible 2nd. When you put them third though, there's something you are blatantly trying to not see.

I would like to point out one thing with the brass scores that year. The Cadets and Blue Devils went head to head almost every show that year. The Cadets won brass EVERY show for almost the last month, except for Finals and Semis. Plus, when they won those shows in brass it was usually around half a point (basically, not even close).

To my ears (my opinion) it's not even close to who should have won brass that year. I LOOOVE BD horn lines, but they weren't in the same ball park that year. I can feel safe putting BD 04 up over Cadets 01, but not BD 01. No way, no how.

Thank you for stating I am welcome to my opinion. It appears that my opinion was backed by the judging community as well. BD won 26 out of 30 shows that season if I remember correctly. Got a 10 and 9.9 during Semi's in brass and a 9.9 and 10 during Finals in brass. 2 perfect sub caption scores and a nearly flawless overall score two nights in a row. To my ears, it's quite obvious why BD won and Cadets didn't. Also, Wayne Downey once said that the 2001 BD hornline was the best he had ever worked with. I'm willing to side with him and the judges on this one, but like you said, you're welcome to your opinion.

[Fran Haring]

I'm starting to wonder how much is in the instrumentation and how much is in the approach to playing.

IMO, it's the training of the players. On both sides of the coin.

In recent years I've heard B-flat lines that have absolutely knocked me out with great in-tune sound. One example: Getting a chance to hear Carolina Crown's horn line this year from ground level, 50-yard line......WOW. What an incredible sound.

But every time I hear the Marine Drum and Bugle Corps, they also knock me flat with great in-tune sound....on 2-valve G's.

So again, IMO.... it's the training of the players.... and I guess, the philosophy of the brass staff. too. A staff that wants its horn line to play with a big, full, confident sound can certainly get those results. To me, it's still that "drum corps sound".... even on B-flats.

Fran

[elmhurstmusiced]

I could care less what the physical demand is on the players, and I am a brass player. If the musicians are not able to execute a quality sound at ALL dynamic levels regardless of staging, then the hornline is not good.

If a section is spread across the field and they sound bad, fix your visual design, or teach your members their INDIVIDUAL responsibility to play in the ensemble. It's actually quite easy to do this. A box staff member simply listens for balance/blend from an audience or box perspective, and the indivual players are instructed on where they should be playing to fit in the ensemble.

If a person is not able to play fff with a good sound, and those around him/her can, then that person should not play louder than they are able to with a good sound.

We can argue and beat this dead horse all we want, but in the end, it comes down to design and instruction on finals night. If it were based on individual talent, by then the corps have had more than enough time to deal with an individuals short-comings as a player, and if there are still issues at the end of the season, well then the brass staff didn't do their job.

Just my thoughts.

[salad315]

Thank you for stating I am welcome to my opinion. It appears that my opinion was backed by the judging community as well. BD won 26 out of 30 shows that season if I remember correctly. Got a 10 and 9.9 during Semi's in brass and a 9.9 and 10 during Finals in brass. 2 perfect sub caption scores and a nearly flawless overall score two nights in a row. To my ears, it's quite obvious why BD won and Cadets didn't. Also, Wayne Downey once said that the 2001 BD hornline was the best he had ever worked with. I'm willing to side with him and the judges on this one, but like you said, you're welcome to your opinion.

Hmm...i like his data better than yours. Mainly because you point out the irrelavent fact that BD won more shows over the summer. Cavies beat both of you at finals...but what does that have to do with who was the better hornline...nothing. Pointing out things like that make you seem like a petulant child (we won THIS many times). You both obviously marched in 2001 BD and Cadets, so I doubt either of you can make a good judgement on how the other sounded...so its basically a pissing match. Just my 2 cents...

[DevTrev]

Hmm...i like his data better than yours. Mainly because you point out the irrelavent fact that BD won more shows over the summer. Cavies beat both of you at finals...but what does that have to do with who was the better hornline...nothing. Pointing out things like that make you seem like a petulant child (we won THIS many times). You both obviously marched in 2001 BD and Cadets, so I doubt either of you can make a good judgement on how the other sounded...so its basically a pissing match. Just my 2 cents...

So did you completely miss the part where I posted the brass scores for semis and finals in order to find fault in my post? You can't ignore all the other info posted and focus on one sentence and say "aha, this doesn't help prove your point." Whether you like his data better or not is irrelevant.

Edited August 26, 2008 by DevTrev

[Whiskey]

Hmm...i like his data better than yours. Mainly because you point out the irrelavent fact that BD won more shows over the summer. Cavies beat both of you at finals...but what does that have to do with who was the better hornline...nothing. Pointing out things like that make you seem like a petulant child (we won THIS many times). You both obviously marched in 2001 BD and Cadets, so I doubt either of you can make a good judgement on how the other sounded...so its basically a pissing match. Just my 2 cents...

This is only one person's opinion and ears who was there sitting on the 50, but Devils definitely deserved the Brass win on Finals night. That show was quite amazing with even the percussion having their best show of the year on Saturday. I actually thought they had a shot at Cavies that night with the fall and everything. You could feel the energy from the performers that night. At then end you could tell they felt they nailed that show and I wholeheartedly agree from seeing the show several times throughout the year and all three nights in Buffalo. The trumpet notes at the end of the opener are just mind blowing, and the individual technique was phoneminal that night.

Cadets definitely deserved to be passed by SCV that night. The audio got altered that year as there was quite an obvious mistake in the solo group at the start of the ballad (not that it counted against them based on the judging criteria or maybe it did). Granted they had a very passionate performance that night and even tied BD, but from a brass stand point not so much. Thursday and Friday were much better runs from them.

SCV had a great night from a low brass stand point. Trumpets were a little weak, but still they had an inspired performance.

[salad315]

So did you completely miss the part where I posted the brass scores for semis and finals in order to find fault in my post? You can't ignore all the other info posted and focus on one sentence and say "aha, this doesn't help prove your point." Whether you like his data better or not is irrelevant.

So you're admitting that what you said about how many shows you won was just puffing your chest out??....ok, just checking

Actually, i can ignore your other data. In fact, i did. Of course your other information was right. Did you expect me to argue about numbers that are set in stone? Do you want me to say 'good job on checking those recaps'. Bonus points for use of a Wayne Downey quote!! Next you'll want the cops to pull you over and give you a pat on the back for going the speed limit.

[salad315]

This is only one person's opinion and ears who was there sitting on the 50, but Devils definitely deserved the Brass win on Finals night. That show was quite amazing with even the percussion having their best show of the year on Saturday. I actually thought they had a shot at Cavies that night with the fall and everything. You could feel the energy from the performers that night. At then end you could tell they felt they nailed that show and I wholeheartedly agree from seeing the show several times throughout the year and all three nights in Buffalo. The trumpet notes at the end of the opener are just mind blowing, and the individual technique was phoneminal that night.

Cadets definitely deserved to be passed by SCV that night. The audio got altered that year as there was quite an obvious mistake in the solo group at the start of the ballad (not that it counted against them based on the judging criteria or maybe it did). Granted they had a very passionate performance that night and even tied BD, but from a brass stand point not so much. Thursday and Friday were much better runs from them.

SCV had a great night from a low brass stand point. Trumpets were a little weak, but still they had an inspired performance.

Now thats more like it. I actually learned something, and you didnt have to be insulting to do it. You win dcp

[mellodramatic]

I could care less what the physical demand is on the players, and I am a brass player. If the musicians are not able to execute a quality sound at ALL dynamic levels regardless of staging, then the hornline is not good.

If a section is spread across the field and they sound bad, fix your visual design, or teach your members their INDIVIDUAL responsibility to play in the ensemble. It's actually quite easy to do this. A box staff member simply listens for balance/blend from an audience or box perspective, and the indivual players are instructed on where they should be playing to fit in the ensemble.

If a person is not able to play fff with a good sound, and those around him/her can, then that person should not play louder than they are able to with a good sound.

We can argue and beat this dead horse all we want, but in the end, it comes down to design and instruction on finals night. If it were based on individual talent, by then the corps have had more than enough time to deal with an individuals short-comings as a player, and if there are still issues at the end of the season, well then the brass staff didn't do their job.

Just my thoughts.

When judges take into account physical demand, it's not like they give a high score if the musical responsibilities are not executed but the physical demand is high. They just recognize the demand when everything IS executed and take that into account when deciding who has a harder book, assuming all the technical stuff is near flawless in the upper echelon.

[Tone Quality Matters]

I'm not 100% sure about 08 Crown. Don't get me wrong, their brass was astounding, but I just wonder if they could play with that same sound with less horns.

Not sure where you have been, but Crown has had that kind of sound since 2004