End of DCI Open Class

[Tom Brace]

And if I remember correctly, wasn't one of the selling points of the rule change the idea that Bb/F brass -- because it was more readily available -- would be cheaper that the same horns in G -- a key used ONLY in drum corps??

and it's becoming so...the new Jupiter Quantums are an example of this...lower cost than the Yamahas.

[84BDsop]

What I see in the above...and in other threads as well...is a focus on how integrating DCI Open class would benefit DCA corps, not the DCI corps. Everything you say might be true...I am talking about how DCP posters approach this argument, from threads I have read.

I think you missed the parts where I also stated (may have been another thread), that running post July shows to give the DCA corps more performances could also be expanded to the DCI ones not going to Nats....more performances are better for everyone. From a competitive standpoint, SCD and Renegades would benefit as they prepared for DCA, but for Kmen or En Garde -- presuming they don't GO to DCA -- as well as DCI Opens like Mystkal, Gold, Incognito, possibly Impule, they would get additional time in front of an audience. I'd rather have my season end with a regional championship of SOME sort instead of having the end be a normal show.

and it's becoming so...the new Jupiter Quantums are an example of this...lower cost than the Yamahas.

And the major difference there is a higher quality horn vs earlier affordable Jupiter brass...works out well for everyone, if the Jupiter brass used by Academy and Regiment gives a comparable sound quality to the more established makers and doesn't rape a new group on price.

[audiodb]

Good example of what I am saying...their financial issues were not the root cause of their failure...it was the internal issues that led them to that pint.

No....the bankruptcy was the overriding issue.

What increased cost of Bb/F horns? Corps need to have horns to play on.

For starters, at the time of the rule change, Bb/F horns cost more than their G counterparts. Not long after, the Bb/F "option" became required for competitive success in world-class, thus forcing existing G hornlines to make the Bb/F purchase. Perhaps prices and the resale markets have changed over time....but back then, corps encountered added costs that would not have occurred had they stuck with G brass.

[audiodb]

Now, let's expamd this discussion a bit. I have stated many times that I believe current Open Class corps shortchanged themselves when they combined into Open Class. It was...at first, just a name change and a procedural change on how finals week would work. As far as receiving any type of compensation for their performances, I do not believe that has been in the cards as of yet. The Michigan City deal may ultimately change that reality however.

What if Open Class directors got together and decided they didn't want DCI judging? How much would they save per show? How many more shows could they develop by cutting the sponsorship costs for hosting a show? How important is competition as compared to performance opportunities?

I'm just asking...perhaps my thoughts are too out there for Open Class directors, but if I was in their shoes...I'd take 4-5 more performances for my members in exchange for a score by judges and a placement versus other corps.

Also, if it cost less to produce a DCI Open Class show, perhaps the corps could get at least some payment for their performances.

I'd appreciate feedback on these ideas. Too far out there?

I don't know. If you are talking about adding shows (not removing judges from existing shows), then there's a real case to be made for lining up additional paydays for corps on the road to Indy.

[Tom Brace]

No....the bankruptcy was the overriding issue.

For starters, at the time of the rule change, Bb/F horns cost more than their G counterparts. Not long after, the Bb/F "option" became required for competitive success in world-class, thus forcing existing G hornlines to make the Bb/F purchase. Perhaps prices and the resale markets have changed over time....but back then, corps encountered added costs that would not have occurred had they stuck with G brass.

Any facts to back this up? Once again, who was required to have Bb/Fs? Name one corps that was required...please. Waiting.

And is competition the whole ball game? Especially, in Open Class? Aren't performances more important than competition?

Also, on the bankruptcy issue with the NH corps...it was mismanagement which caused the bankruptcy. The building sells and they have money in the bank begs the question, why didn't the corps' management sell the building at the top of the real estate market, especially since restrictions placed on indoor public spaces made bingo less and less profitable.

Bad managment. As is in most of the cases, corps' management failures in being fiscally sound and smart, creative in their decisions regarding the fiscal health of the organization.

[Tom Brace]

I don't know. If you are talking about adding shows (not removing judges from existing shows), then there's a real case to be made for lining up additional paydays for corps on the road to Indy.

I'm talking about the most radical idea of all. No judges until Michigan City. And even then, I'd be good with no judges and a fans' choice straight on through to Indy. And since they had the whole morning on Saturday, I'd do all 19 corps starting early on Saturday morning...again...fans' choice. Every corps gets to perform in every show...for the entire Open Class season.

The judges are the single highest cost that add zero in the way of value at this level. Zero value. Heck, other corps' staff could judges each other better.

Wanna cut costs at this level...ask the judges to go home for a season. It's a savings of what $2500 a show?

[84BDsop]

Any facts to back this up? Once again, who was required to have Bb/Fs? Name one corps that was required...please. Waiting.

*sits back and waits for someone to mention Pioneer....ah what the Hell...I'll do it!*

I don't think there was a REQUIREMENT to be on Bb/F like there was to be on G prior to 2000, but there HAVE been accusations of corps being feeling pressured to move to Bb/F in order to score better....Pio was the primary point of discussion there, if I recall.

[Tom Brace]

*sits back and waits for someone to mention Pioneer....ah what the Hell...I'll do it!*

I don't think there was a REQUIREMENT to be on Bb/F like there was to be on G prior to 2000, but there HAVE been accusations of corps being feeling pressured to move to Bb/F in order to score better....Pio was the primary point of discussion there, if I recall.

And Donny Allen can be found to be quoted that there was never a requirement for Pioneer to ever change horns. It was a corps' managment decision. I'm not arguing the decision's merits. Just that there was zero evidence of a note from Dan Acheson to Roman Blenski saying...get Bb horns or you can't march in World Class next year.

Never a requirement. Simple as that.

Competition versus performance opportunities. Smart corps managers choose more performance opportunities for their members than just the olde mantra of competition at all costs.

Thoughts?

[84BDsop]

And Donny Allen can be found to be quoted that there was never a requirement for Pioneer to ever change horns. It was a corps' managment decision. I'm not arguing the decision's merits. Just that there was zero evidence of a note from Dan Acheson to Roman Blenski saying...get Bb horns or you can't march in World Class next year.

Never a requirement. Simple as that.

A stated requirement -- like being in G prior to 2000 -- is different from any subtle pressure -- real or perceived -- to switch to Bb/F.

There may NOT have been any such hinting or pressure from anyone re Pio (to use the example...it could've easily been Southwind, PC, or any other corps), but it's possibly some of the staff may have misinterpreted various comments as such.

Someone DID say a while back that Pio's staff was told they might get better brass scores if they went Bb/f....but I think the issue there also was NOT that the judges said "Go Bb and we'll score you better," it was more "If you go Bb and get a matched line, your scores could improve simply BECAUSE the sound will be more uniform."

Read straight out it's good advice...a matched line DOES minimize intonation and sound production conflicts. but it's easy to see how someone might read it as a subtle hint that switching to Bb itself would improve the scores regardless of the change in brass sound.

GETT BACK to the original topic...I don't believe Open Class is going to die off....but it MAY have to change to better serve the members....and sometimes touring to DCI isn't it....thus my suggestion of mostly regional touring and teaming up with the Srs for a couple more shows after the DCI tour leaves California.

[JimF-LowBari]

When we talk about options lets not forget the two unwritten rules about them:

1) If it's optional now, it will be cost you points in the future if you don't have it.

Past examples: pits, contras. As for amps, vocals.. I'll let you know in a few years.

2) If your corps doesn't have it, they will be preceived as being behind the curve campared to other corps. Let's face it, corps are competing for members and the more it costs to be with a corps the less people will want to be with a "behind the curve" corps.

And as for Pioneer, IIRC Donny said the unmatched horn line was either part of the problem or was the problem according to some judges. But by that time what would have been cheaper, buying entire G line or entire Bb line (I don't know). And who does entire G lines anymore besides Kanstul? (OK probably mis-spelled it, don't have my Bari nearby.)

Closer to On Topic edit: Was going to suggest that OC corps not go the full "options" route as the WC corps to save costs. But..... that might defeat the purpose as potential members might not try out for OC corps as the potential member might think they would be missing something. (Danged if ya do, danged it ya don't. )

Edited May 8, 2009 by JimF-3rdBari