MikeD Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 No....the bankruptcy was the overriding issue. Disagree. For starters, at the time of the rule change, Bb/F horns cost more than their G counterparts. No, they did not. Not long after, the Bb/F "option" became required for competitive success in world-class, thus forcing existing G hornlines to make the Bb/F purchase. Perhaps prices and the resale markets have changed over time....but back then, corps encountered added costs that would not have occurred had they stuck with G brass. The corps made their own choices to change, not a DCI mandate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 *sits back and waits for someone to mention Pioneer....ah what the Hell...I'll do it!*I don't think there was a REQUIREMENT to be on Bb/F like there was to be on G prior to 2000, but there HAVE been accusations of corps being feeling pressured to move to Bb/F in order to score better....Pio was the primary point of discussion there, if I recall. That has been discussed here. IMO that was poor judge commentary, not a stated policy of DCI. Plus, when you read about the physical state of some of the horns you see they were on...or even past...their last legs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Any facts to back this up? Once again, who was required to have Bb/Fs? Name one corps that was required...please. Waiting. We already have a thread for that here. And is competition the whole ball game? Especially, in Open Class? Aren't performances more important than competition? Judging from the number of non-competitive junior drum & bugle corps programs around today, and the level of interest in them, it seems obvious that competition is an important part of the drum corps equation. I've heard many corps directors, fans and members express opinions along those lines. Also, on the bankruptcy issue with the NH corps...it was mismanagement which caused the bankruptcy. The building sells and they have money in the bank begs the question, why didn't the corps' management sell the building at the top of the real estate market, especially since restrictions placed on indoor public spaces made bingo less and less profitable. As I recall, they did put the hall up for sale before the market tanked. But even if my memory is incorrect....are you contending that Spartans management should have known the market was going to tank in September/October of 2008? Bad managment. As is in most of the cases, corps' management failures in being fiscally sound and smart, creative in their decisions regarding the fiscal health of the organization. Well, if everyone who didn't get out of the market in early September '08 is a "bad manager", you'll have to tell me where the good managers are (if there are any). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Disagree. If you're going to disagree with the published accounts of the Spartans situation, perhaps you should elaborate a bit. No, they did not. Sorry, but the price lists of the day said otherwise. The corps made their own choices to change, not a DCI mandate. Oh, sure. It's always a choice. In the Pioneer situation, they had choices - finish last in brass, or switch to Bb/F. Just competing in DCI is a choice. Point is, that choice has become more costly in many ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Sorry, but the price lists of the day said otherwise. OK..show me what a corps paid (not just the list price) and what one paid for the equivalent G set of horns...and how Bb/F cost more. In the band instrument world, when purchasing a large quantity of horns there is no way they'd pay list price. Even smaller quantities would not be purchased at list price. As special purchases, the break on a set of G horns would be less. Even those in favor of G horns noted that from what I recall of the threads on the topic. Oh, sure. It's always a choice. In the Pioneer situation, they had choices - finish last in brass, or switch to Bb/F. Were they not on Bb/F last season? What was their placement at 1/4-finals in brass? Just competing in DCI is a choice. Point is, that choice has become more costly in many ways. Yes, it is costly. No one said otherwise. Corps choose to fund the things they think important. If I am running a corps and I take in $x and spend $x + $y, I am not being fiscally responsible. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 OK..show me what a corps paid (not just the list price) and what one paid for the equivalent G set of horns...and how Bb/F cost more. Sorry, but I don't have any invoices or purchase orders from individual corps. Do you? The only evidence we had in print were the price lists back in the day - and they had Bb/F horns listing higher than their G counterparts. In the band instrument world, when purchasing a large quantity of horns there is no way they'd pay list price. Even smaller quantities would not be purchased at list price. As special purchases, the break on a set of G horns would be less. Even those in favor of G horns noted that from what I recall of the threads on the topic. So you think maybe the "price break" would have been more significant on Bb/F vs. G? I think not. A quantity discount is a quantity discount. Plus, even if Bb/F were given deeper discounts, you haven't proven they'd be deep enough to overcome the steeper list prices. Were they not on Bb/F last season? What was their placement at 1/4-finals in brass? I don't recall - probably last place - but I do know that whatever the outcome, it was judged on the basis of the performances that day, and not predetermined due to the key of the horns as stated in '07. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Sorry, but I don't have any invoices or purchase orders from individual corps. Do you?The only evidence we had in print were the price lists back in the day - and they had Bb/F horns listing higher than their G counterparts. So what? What was paid is the only thing that matters. Companies set list prices for all sorts of reasons; in the case of band instruments the list and the price paid have never been the same in my experience. So you think maybe the "price break" would have been more significant on Bb/F vs. G? I think not. A quantity discount is a quantity discount. I do, because G horns are not 'stock' items...they are special requests. Plus, even if Bb/F were given deeper discounts, you haven't proven they'd be deep enough to overcome the steeper list prices. I don't have to 'prove' anything...nor do you. This is just all personal opinion based on our own experiences. I am telling you mine. I don't recall - probably last place - but I do know that whatever the outcome, it was judged on the basis of the performances that day, and not predetermined due to the key of the horns as stated in '07. I suggest you reread the thread on the issue, and the comments from staff like Donny. It looked to me as if it were very poor comments from a couple of judges, not a 'predetermined' placement. You REALLY think they were placed wrong at champs? The comments by those judges were very poor comments, if the thread relayed them correctly and in the proper context. No disagreement there from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcf06 Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 (edited) "Oh? What's the talk on this forum right now? Spartans and their famous financial crisis taking them out of action for '09. Magic cited a $50,000 debt in their obituary. Faltering finances were part of Esperanza's autopsy. Court of Honor (and their director) lost their shirts when financial sponsors fell through. Americanos - don't get Tom Brace started on their finances. Southwind is off the field exclusively due to finances - yes, they're not dead, but the point is that I find it hard to believe you could have missed all this. And those are just a few examples that come to mind readily...." Finances are fine. The Organization is Still running bingo, and no they are not breaking laws. There is nothing illegal going on with in the organization. The board of Directors chose to make Bingo non smoking before wisconsin enacted a state wide ban. Many bingo players have returned and bingo is on the rise. The same people who have been there for the past 20 years are still running the organization, and they are actively looking for more board members. Will we see the Americanos back anytime soon. Only time will tell they are in no hurry to get gack to the field. My hat is off to those three people. They were able to keep the organization from the horrors of bankruptcy. Edited May 9, 2009 by dcf06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 With some Open Class corps clearly expressing their desire to be World Class or return to World Class and the other issues surrounding the current status of Open Class (provide own housing, no performance fees, etc.) what do you think? No performance fees is always the WTF for me....Come from the days of the amount of money a corps got depended on placement (1st place got $$$$$, 2nd got $$$$, etc). Idea of a corps not getting fair reimbursement for providing a service (IOW performing) to a show sounds like a ripoff for me. Our first two years we were the equivilant of OC because we were rebuilding but those last place checks were a big reasons we survived. To borrow a phrase I 've seen directed towards corps that have goen under" If a show can't pay all the corps that perform, then it must be mismanagement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted May 9, 2009 Author Share Posted May 9, 2009 Finances are fine. The Organization is Still running bingo, and no they are not breaking laws. There is nothing illegal going on with in the organization. The board of Directors chose to make Bingo non smoking before wisconsin enacted a state wide ban. Many bingo players have returned and bingo is on the rise. The same people who have been there for the past 20 years are still running the organization, and they are actively looking for more board members. Will we see the Americanos back anytime soon. Only time will tell they are in no hurry to get gack to the field. My hat is off to those three people. They were able to keep the organization from the horrors of bankruptcy. Keep believing Sean...keep believing. I just hope the cash taken in every Bingo night always equals the cash deposited in the bank. That would be the legal, moral and ethical thing to do. Afterall, bingo is run to support the kids...you know...the ones who march in the drum corps. You remember...the kids. There's a drum corps...right? Because that's what the organization's mission statement says...a drum corps....for the kids. Again...keep believing. I guess you gotta believe in something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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