When will Crown pass the Cadets?

[CrownLeadSop]

I think their buses passed us on the road last night :-) ... so .... I guess last night :-)

Love ya George. :)

[StarVoyager]

Heh, well if you ask me both groups are GREAT and I can't wait to see these shows fully maxed out. I couldn't tell anyone right now who is going to be where because it's FAR too #### early for that. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ride.

[BMBob]

Hopefully, I will get a chance to see both shows at FirstBEAT, and think about how they stack up.

[2000Cadet]

There wasn't a Z-Pull in the 2000 show as far as I remember!?!?

The inverted box at the end of our show morphed into a Z-pull.

Edited June 24, 2009 by 2000Cadet

[relmquist]

not according to what we are seeing on the recaps.

inside the numbers, the judges are saying "the cadets have much more room to grow than crown does, AND they are performing at just as high a level."

take tonight's ensemble visual score

cadets 8.2/7.6

crown 8.0/7.7

that means that the cadets are getting credit for greater demand, but aren't performing their show as well as crown is performing theirs. theoretically, the subcaption numbers should catch each other on the last night -- when you perform your show up to its potential. right now, the cadets have no where to go but up, whereas the judging community seems to be saying that crown's show -- as complete as it is -- just isn't it.

Soon!

[Peel Paint]

not according to what we are seeing on the recaps.

inside the numbers, the judges are saying "the cadets have much more room to grow than crown does, AND they are performing at just as high a level."

take tonight's ensemble visual score

cadets 8.2/7.6

crown 8.0/7.7

that means that the cadets are getting credit for greater demand, but aren't performing their show as well as crown is performing theirs. theoretically, the subcaption numbers should catch each other on the last night -- when you perform your show up to its potential. right now, the cadets have no where to go but up, whereas the judging community seems to be saying that crown's show -- as complete as it is -- just isn't it.

I agree with Shortandfast, you're reading waa-aaa-aaay too much into these caption scores. Way bigger caption margins than this have been overcome after week one. Unless you've heard the judges' tapes and unless you are sure that Crown isn't going to be making further design changes and additions to their show, you can't nail Crown's coffin shut yet on the grounds that their show can't grow like Cadets. As you know from studying the recaps, they're not even judging Brass, Visual Performance, or Colorguard yet! Time may prove you right, but if so, you were right while throwing a dart at a dartboard with a blindfold on.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Peel Paint

[Peel Paint]

can you explain how that works? I see the second number is for performance/execution, right? What is the first number a reflection of? Design/Demand? If it is design/demand, why is it not constant for the whole season? I'm not sure what the first number is... just looking for clarification.

You are correct, soccerguy, in suggesting that he's oversimplifying. I don't have anything to link you to to demonstrate it, but the subcaption titles are a little misleading. If you ever get to read a judges' sheet or listen to the way they score the subcaptions, you realize that it's not as simple as judging design in one subcaption and execution in the other. Actually, I wish they'd do it that way, because it would make the judging more transparent. But transparency has never a goal of DCI judging. ;-) Elements of both design and execution get blended into both subcaptions.

[Benchmark]

Soon!

Have you even seen both shows? In person? Twice? Three times? I have and I will give you my two cents. Last year and the year before I fell in love with Crown. I was totally disappionted with their show this year. Their horn line is powerful but all the green bleeds so much it kinda hurts the eyes. They don't move much either so the demand compared to The Cadets show is night and day. I don't know if Crown's show is going to place them in the top 3 or even the top 5. The Cadets had 18 pages of drill still to put in their show and they are beating them already. The demand on music and drill and the fact that everyone seems to really like The Cadets show will take them into the top 3 without any doubt in my mind. Although I like The Cadets I am objective and last year for the record I did not like The Cadets show. Their show this year is the pure drum corps that everyone was wanting. The electronics they are doing is tasteful and it works to give them a unique sound. The drill is amazing and the demand of this show is incredible. Crown will not pass The Cadets this year unless politics are involved or they make some major changes to their show.

For all of you that are commenting about Crowns color guard this year. How can you even see what they are doing? In person there is too much green. Green uniforms, Green Drums, Green flags and the green field that they are marching on. They are bleeding green and it is taking away from their show. The show looks like a big blob of green with no defination. I bet I would appreciate what they are doing better in practice. Somebody has to agee with this. After 3 times of seeing this show....its just not working! The scores they are getting are very generous for what they are doing! So if you think it is soon, maybe next year will be soon enough. It isn't gona happen!

Edited June 24, 2009 by Benchmark

[Tommeee]

ok...who knows...how many titles do they have with it in the show? and how many times did they do it and not win?

Hmm, I seem to remember them doing it in 1983, and they won. They did it it 1984, and won again. In 1990, they did it, and they won for the 5th time. And, of course, they did it in 2000 and won.

So, my count is 4 times for the Z-pull. And they won all four of those times.

Not sure, did they do it other times and NOT win? When would it have been?

[jwillis35]

Hmm, I seem to remember them doing it in 1983, and they won. They did it it 1984, and won again. In 1990, they did it, and they won for the 5th time. And, of course, they did it in 2000 and won.

So, my count is 4 times for the Z-pull. And they won all four of those times.

Not sure, did they do it other times and NOT win? When would it have been?

They did a Z-pull in 2003 and did not win. Just sayin'.

Also, I saw both corps last night. Both are great! Both could well be top 3 material, who knows.

Crown's drill this year is their most demanding to date. They have a total product and their performance levels are already good. I would not count them out of being able to beat Cadets, at least some. Now, I don't see them beating Cadets a lot, and certainly not near the end of the season. If anything, Crown has to look at their music GE. I think their guard scores will help them, and I see a more specific brass caption score having the potential of going either way, Crown early, Cadets later. But Crown's music GE may be their achilles heel. Last year this was their forte, and it's not like it's bad this year, but this is where a corps like the Cavaliers is so masterful.

Example: some times people can listen to the Cavaliers in stand still and think "boring, no music GE, hard to follow." Then they see the show, visuals and all, and everything makes perfect sense. It all just comes together, and music GE enhances visual, and visual GE enhances music. I don't think any corps has done this as well as Cavaliers in the 2000s.

The Cadets finally have a bit more of this, to go along with their zany and crazy hard drill, but Crown is lacking the GE connection with the exception of the bookends of the show, which I think are excellent.