euponitone Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 (edited) And this is the thinking that bothers a lot of people...that whether or not a corps performs well enough...the historically better corps will get the benefit of the doubt because they "were probably still pretty good".And dont even get me started on "numbers management"...if a corps performs well enough in a caption to earn a 15.0...dont give them a 14.8 because it would be too close to an elite corps that will "probably" be better... It bothers you??? I think you read a little too much into my choice of words... I was saying that as sarcasm - the fact is, that even if the Mandarins have an amazing run, it's not going to affect the cadets in any way shape or form. Its not like football...the Mandarins cant put together a beautiful touchdown drive to start the game, and then come out and play defense against them. They do their show, Cadets do their show. The fact is that in all three (or 4) phases of brass, percussion, guard, and visual, the cadets show is going to be written and performed at a much higher level, due to the talent of the members and instruction. To give an example - Look at the one Mikey talked about above, when we beat Phantom at a show in 06 where we had an awful run. Literally about a 3rd of the drum break fell apart, and we still won. Consider, we had been beating phantom all year to that point, but was that really fair??>....maybe not, but consider this. Regiment was still their typical early season form....aka, kind of a wreck. We may have had a rough section music ensemble-wise, but the brass werent playing, and it didnt affect the guard as far as I know. So 2 judges maybe docked us major points (perhaps 3) - out of 8 or 9.....for a small part of the show. At the time, we still played better, marched better, spun better, and had a better designed show than them ...for the time being. Was it wrong that we won?? We all know how they year came out....Phantom got their act together and wound up beating us by 4 points....but they werent ready to do it yet at that june show. Their usual early season show design and performance issues were there, and they got judged accordingly. The fact is that 'bad shows' as seen by the audience are usually based on a fall, or a bad release or two, and while judges consider these things, it's only a small part. I still go back to my original post in this thread, and one that others have brought up. Which night specifically should PC have beaten BD? When did Academy get screwed at a show against SCV? What year should Troopers taken down the Cadets? All this talk is lovely in practice, but the people most up in arms are arguing about a supposedly unfair system with 0 evidence, and its starting to show. Edited December 9, 2009 by euponitone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Was I disappointed that my corps was edged by hundredths of a point to make semifinals? YES! Did I think my corps had been legitimately outperformed by the corps who edged us out for finals? YES! You know what I did to deal with my disappointment? I went into the stands....and watched some good drum corps shows, and enjoyed myself....In other words, get over it, life goes on. And this is exactly the attitude that I think most people in lower placing corps have, which is great! If people really thought the system was THAT bad, we would have a hundred times more ring chasers than we do... In 2003, my corps outperformed the corps ahead of us in brass, percussion, guard, and marching on finals night.....but we lost to them. Am I bitter about it??...only in jest sometimes. Fact is, who cares what color your medal is....and that show that beat us....is now one of my favorites... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 (edited) I realized how wrong I was. Most of you are right. It was wrong of me to question the system, it works and everyone is happy. I apologize for my arrogance. Can I have another cup of the Kool-aid pleae, the first tasted so....... Edited December 9, 2009 by Blackstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84skyrydr Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 It bothers you??? I think you read a little too much into my choice of words... I was saying that as sarcasm - the fact is, that even if the Mandarins have an amazing run, it's not going to affect the cadets in any way shape or form. Its not like football...the Mandarins can put together a beautiful touchdown drive to start the game, and then come out and play defense against them. They do their show, Cadets do their show. The fact is that in all three (or 4) phases of brass, percussion, guard, and visual, the cadets show is going to be written and performed at a much higher level, due to the talent of the members and instruction. To give an example - Look at the one Mikey talked about above, when we beat Phantom at a show in 06 where we had an awful run. Literally about a 3rd of the drum break fell apart, and we still won. Consider, we had been beating phantom all year to that point, but was that really fair??>....maybe not, but consider this. Regiment was still their typical early season form....aka, kind of a wreck. We may have had a rough section music ensemble-wise, but the brass werent playing, and it didnt affect the guard as far as I know. So 2 judges maybe docked us major points (perhaps 3) - out of 8 or 9.....for a small part of the show. At the time, we still played better, marched better, spun better, and had a better designed show than them at the time. Was it wrong that we won?? We all know how they year came out....Phantom got their act together and wound up beating us by 4 points....but they werent ready to do it yet at that june show. Their usual early season show design and performance issues were there, and they got judged accordingly. The fact is that 'bad shows' as seen by the audience are usually based on a fall, or a bad release or two, and while judges consider these things, it's only a small part. I still go back to my original post in this thread, and one that others have brought up. Which night specifically should PC have beaten BD? When did Academy get screwed at a show against SCV? What year should Troopers taken down the Cadets? All this talk is lovely in practice, but the people most up in arms are arguing about a supposedly unfair system with 0 evidence, and its starting to show. I don't think your take on the original thread is correct, or maybe I am wrong, but the jist is this. A top 6 corps should have the talent and the ability to beat other top 6 corps on a given show just as the next 6 should be able to float around and etc. But it RARELY if ever happens. Like you said, you had a bad performance and still got to win. That is WRONG. That proves judging isn't done fairly nor consistently. Honestly answer this: The Colts are averaging 13th place and the Mandarins are averaging 20th place. The Colts show on night X is horrible. There are members out with the flu, there are all kinds of horn fracks and the drumline drums its worst show. The colorguard drops everything that is picked up. Meanwhile Mandarins have the best show of their lives and everything falls into place. Sound is great, colorguard catches everything thrown their way and the show goes as perfect as it can be. Now how do you HONESTLY think the judges are going to place these two? You know how, so let me hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamMan Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I realized how wrong I was. Most of you are right. It was wrong of me to question the system, it works and everyone is happy. I apologize for my arrogance. Can I have another cup of the Kool-aid pleae, the first tasted so....... I guess I just don't understand the point you're trying to make. I've seen very good explanations from many people in this thread, and those should have cleared up any points of confusion. Now I'M the one that's confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaners Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 (edited) No one thought Anaheim could WIN the first DCI Championship after coming in 3rd in prelims by 3.2No one thought SCV could come back to WIN in 1981 to win after finishing 7th in 1980. No one thought Phantom could WIN in 1996 after coming in 5th in 1995 No one thought Phantom could WIN in 1996 after coming in 4th in quarter finals... down 3.7 No one thought Madison could WIN in 1988 after finishing 7th and 6th the two previous years. No one thought MADISON would DROP to 7th in 1989 after WINNING in 1988 No one thought Phantom would DROP to 9th after WINNING in 2008. While all of this may be true, you are still speaking in terms of year to year. I am sure everyone will agree that any corp can jump or drop significantly from year to year, as history has already proven. That is not what is at question. If two shows of the same year have differences in design and execution, then one of them is going to be better than the other, based off of the judging system. Edited December 9, 2009 by shaners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaners Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 (edited) Honestly answer this: The Colts are averaging 13th place and the Mandarins are averaging 20th place. The Colts show on night X is horrible. There are members out with the flu, there are all kinds of horn fracks and the drumline drums its worst show. The colorguard drops everything that is picked up. Meanwhile Mandarins have the best show of their lives and everything falls into place. Sound is great, colorguard catches everything thrown their way and the show goes as perfect as it can be. Now how do you HONESTLY think the judges are going to place these two? You know how, so let me hear it. Execution does not = design. Show me any year where the mandarins had a better designed show AND a better performed show then the Colts, and i promise that many people will agree with you. Unfortunately for you, this hypothetical show from heck that you are describing never happens. Further, just because there are errors does not mean that the judges catch it. Further, just because something is good does not mean that the judges see it; which goes back to design. In my opinion, a realistic poor performance of a 13th place show will beat a realistic great performance of a 20th place show, any day of the week. Edited December 9, 2009 by shaners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I don't think your take on the original thread is correct, or maybe I am wrong. The thread is titled "Why the Academy, Colts, etc can't win next year", so yes, you are wrong about that Now, should there be a little more movement night to night in the standings???....maybe, and i would be fine with it if there was. I would be ok with SCV beating cavies once or twice last year, Phantom beating bluecoats (which is a strange 'upset'), Surf beating crossmen, or whatever. Those are all a little bit 'closer', than what the OP seemed to have in mind...but this past year I would have taken crown or cadets beating bd once or twice, even if it meant they lost to SCV or Bloo a few times. Still I do feel that by late July and August, the corps are VERY consistent, even on the lower levels, and that things just simply shouldnt shift around much in 99% of cases. We are one year removed from an epic finals upset, where it was a 3 horse race going in, and 2 years removed from a year where 4 corps could have placed anywhere from 4-7 (2007). Like I've said many times, if someone can point out a specific example of where slotting actually occured, and that a corps got completely screwed because they werent 'historically' in the same league as the corps that beat them, I'd be happy to look at that on a case by case basis... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Murray Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Blue Devils : New York Yankees Colts : Toronto Blue Jays ' Nuff said ? So, the Colts have won two world titles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 It bothers you??? I think you read a little too much into my choice of words... I was saying that as sarcasm - the fact is, that even if the Mandarins have an amazing run, it's not going to affect the cadets in any way shape or form. Its not like football...the Mandarins can put together a beautiful touchdown drive to start the game, and then come out and play defense against them. They do their show, Cadets do their show. The fact is that in all three (or 4) phases of brass, percussion, guard, and visual, the cadets show is going to be written and performed at a much higher level, due to the talent of the members and instruction. To give an example - Look at the one Mikey talked about above, when we beat Phantom at a show in 06 where we had an awful run. Literally about a 3rd of the drum break fell apart, and we still won. Consider, we had been beating phantom all year to that point, but was that really fair??>....maybe not, but consider this. Regiment was still their typical early season form....aka, kind of a wreck. We may have had a rough section music ensemble-wise, but the brass werent playing, and it didnt affect the guard as far as I know. So 2 judges maybe docked us major points (perhaps 3) - out of 8 or 9.....for a small part of the show. At the time, we still played better, marched better, spun better, and had a better designed show than them at the time. Was it wrong that we won?? We all know how they year came out....Phantom got their act together and wound up beating us by 4 points....but they werent ready to do it yet at that june show. Their usual early season show design and performance issues were there, and they got judged accordingly. The fact is that 'bad shows' as seen by the audience are usually based on a fall, or a bad release or two, and while judges consider these things, it's only a small part. I still go back to my original post in this thread, and one that others have brought up. Which night specifically should PC have beaten BD? When did Academy get screwed at a show against SCV? What year should Troopers taken down the Cadets? All this talk is lovely in practice, but the people most up in arms are arguing about a supposedly unfair system with 0 evidence, and its starting to show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.