Drum Corps Without DCI/DCA

[Bob984]

I am not certain what the results would be if DCI/DCA had not been formed. I do know some of the major reasons that DCI was formed were....

(1) Several corps felt that they had no input regarding contest rules or how anything was done.....all was dictated.

(2) The corps wanted some sort of standardized judging so that you could go from one region to another and receive more

even adjudication

(3) They wanted to have a large amount of say in how the activity was governed and organized.

I believe there was merit to all of the reasons. The funny thing is, though, is I am not sure if the desired results fully happened.

Even after DCI started, you still had a ton of independent organizations, with their own judging, although most adopted the same scoring sheets, but that was about it. UOEC, Drum Corps Midwest, and several others were independent of DCI. That said, it was not unusual for a group to get a 72, and then a week LATER get a 58 at at DCI show. It took a long time for number 2 above to happen, and although it's not perfect (nothing short of head to head matchups is), I would say things are in the ballpark with that, now.

In regards to item 3, the corps pretty much do run the show. Although they do have some voting individuals who are "at large" and we have an executive director, The corps have the final say. Sometimes I do feel that the ED should have some "veto" power and perhaps the "at large" representation should be a little larger.

I do know that many blame the loss of many, many corps exclusively on DCI, and I don't think that is fair. Drum corps evolved from a largely regional competition base, where corps stayed in their region, and then they may or may not have raised the funds to go to AL or VFW nationals. to the touring model, where corps would compete both in their region and nationally, and all the players would go to nationals at DCI. The incredible increase in cost of running a "national" corps, with others trying to keep pace, certainly put many out of business. Money problems, and disappointment over competitive success, have been the reason of demise for many a corps.

What do we have......two circuits with some very fine organizations.........competitive..........many units struggling with money, but so is all of America..........membership interest is adequate, albeit expensive, especially DCI......but yet the corps give them much "bang for the buck". My hope is that these corps remain solid, and we see some new or start-up corps succeed, and that the open division grows and flourishes. I know that some would like to see the return of the "community corps", where all the kids are from that community, hop on school buses on the weekend, and travel 30 miles down the road to a contest and there's a ton of corps doing the same thing. I'm sure that was great in it's day, and I respect that, but I really don't think that is going to happen. Therfore, hopefully we will at least see some stability, especially in tough economic times, and eventual slow growth. Hopefully $$$ doesn't do any more corps in.

GB

[DAvery]

Look at the relative health of both the veterans organizations these days; I can't imagine they'd have been that interested in maintaining the drum corps thing when they have to be concerned about finding enough vets who are interested in joining, much less spending the time going to conventions, volunteering with their post's corps, etc. A depressing but true fact is that less than 10% of the VFW's national membership right now are under the age of 50. The majority are in their 70s and 80s.

If DCI hadn't happened and everyone had kept their allegiance to the veterans orgs? Drum corps would likely have been left to wither and die a long time ago.

Before I answered this question I did a little research. The peak membership in the VFW was in 1997 at 2.2 million. They are now at 1.6 million, with 800,000 being above the age of 70.

[JimF-LowBari]

Before I answered this question I did a little research. The peak membership in the VFW was in 1997 at 2.2 million. They are now at 1.6 million, with 800,000 being above the age of 70.

Surprised that 1997 was the peak, thought it would have been earlier by a decade or so

Any idea of the AL breakdown? Lost track of the Legion numbers when I moved out of the house and didn't scan dads Legion magazine. And as a SAL member, I only get their newsletter.

[BRASSO]

I am not certain what the results would be if DCI/DCA had not been formed. I do know some of the major reasons that DCI was formed were....

(1) Several corps felt that they had no input regarding contest rules or how anything was done.....all was dictated.

(2) The corps wanted some sort of standardized judging so that you could go from one region to another and receive more

even adjudication

(3) They wanted to have a large amount of say in how the activity was governed and organized.

I believe there was merit to all of the reasons. The funny thing is, though, is I am not sure if the desired results fully happened.

Even after DCI started, you still had a ton of independent organizations, with their own judging, although most adopted the same scoring sheets, but that was about it. UOEC, Drum Corps Midwest, and several others were independent of DCI. That said, it was not unusual for a group to get a 72, and then a week LATER get a 58 at at DCI show. It took a long time for number 2 above to happen, and although it's not perfect (nothing short of head to head matchups is), I would say things are in the ballpark with that, now.

In regards to item 3, the corps pretty much do run the show. Although they do have some voting individuals who are "at large" and we have an executive director, The corps have the final say. Sometimes I do feel that the ED should have some "veto" power and perhaps the "at large" representation should be a little larger.

I do know that many blame the loss of many, many corps exclusively on DCI, and I don't think that is fair. Drum corps evolved from a largely regional competition base, where corps stayed in their region, and then they may or may not have raised the funds to go to AL or VFW nationals. to the touring model, where corps would compete both in their region and nationally, and all the players would go to nationals at DCI. The incredible increase in cost of running a "national" corps, with others trying to keep pace, certainly put many out of business. Money problems, and disappointment over competitive success, have been the reason of demise for many a corps.

What do we have......two circuits with some very fine organizations.........competitive..........many units struggling with money, but so is all of America..........membership interest is adequate, albeit expensive, especially DCI......but yet the corps give them much "bang for the buck". My hope is that these corps remain solid, and we see some new or start-up corps succeed, and that the open division grows and flourishes. I know that some would like to see the return of the "community corps", where all the kids are from that community, hop on school buses on the weekend, and travel 30 miles down the road to a contest and there's a ton of corps doing the same thing. I'm sure that was great in it's day, and I respect that, but I really don't think that is going to happen. Therfore, hopefully we will at least see some stability, especially in tough economic times, and eventual slow growth. Hopefully $$$ doesn't do any more corps in.

GB

I agree that the Drum Corps former days when ( as you said above)" kids are from that community, hop on school busses on the weekend, and travel 30 years down the road to competitions where there are ton of others doing the same thing " has probably come to an end. Regrettably ( and ironically ), kids do precisely this every weekend in America now for soccer, gymnastics, figure skating, baseball, swimming, hockey, basketball, etc,..... and even high school marching band.

Edited December 17, 2009 by BRASSO

[audiodb]

Junior corps people didn't like how VFW people ran Championships so some created the "Combine" later renamed DCI (early 70s). Senior corps people didn't like how AL people ran Championships so some created DCA (early 60s).

What would Drum Corps be like if those changes had not happened?

Possibly, not much different. Had the corps not stepped forward to organize DCA and DCI, another entity such as a judging organization or show sponsor (i.e. World Open/Drum Corps News/Fleetwood) would likely have grown into a similar agency. Or, perhaps a drum corps insider would have ascended to power within the AL or VFW within a few more years, and enacted the type of changes the corps sought. And there are other scenarios....

In any case, most of the same improvements could have taken place....and most of the same mistakes could have been made as well.

[BRASSO]

Before I answered this question I did a little research. The peak membership in the VFW was in 1997 at 2.2 million. They are now at 1.6 million, with 800,000 being above the age of 70.

Many of returning Vets from Vietnam felt they had little in common with the Vets from WW2 and Korea. The returning Vets from those wars came home to the public as conquering heros..... while the Vietnam Vets, despite winning most of the ground fighting had their Goverment call for retreat under public pressure, and these Vets came home to confusion, catcalls, chaos, etc during that time period.. As such, most of the Vietnam era Vets couldn't wait to put it all behind them and get on with their personal lives and careers. And so few of them joined the AL and VFW posts. Then in the 80's early 90's, some of the returning Vets in these decades did join as members of some of the VFW's and AL's Posts until we saw a peak membership in the late 90's. It has essentially been an ebb and flow of membership since WW1. But with the membership numbers decidedly more on a downward curve.

Edited December 17, 2009 by BRASSO

[JimF-LowBari]

Know a few Korea Vets who felt they didn't get that great of a welcome from the WWI/WWII vets at the local Posts. The thought was the Korea vets didn't win "their war". On the other hand the career military in Korea had a lot of WWII vets so the "Korea War" only vets didn't make that large of a percentage of AL members.

Some of this info I read somewhere (forget) and some I heard first hand from that guy who has the Legion magazine (one of the Korea only group).

[Grumpy]

FWIW, there are still a fair number of AL and VFW posts that still "sponsor" drum corps-mostly in the alumni/all age segment. By "sponsor", most likely they are providing a place to rehearse at little or no cost. I marched in an all-age parade corps a few years back that was "sponsored" by a local AL post-they provided us use of their facility one night per week for rehearsals, with the stipulation that we would march in the local Memorial Day and Christmas parades, led by their honor guard (and the Post FED us after the Memorial Day parades!). I notice that a new all age corps called Red Knights has started in Pittsfield, MA and their rehearsals are being held at the local VFW. I believe the Boston Crusaders Sr. corps rehearses at either a VFW or AL post. The fact that it's alumni and all age groups rather than DCI corps probably makes sense. The post, by providing use of their facilities, probably increases income from the bar significantly on rehearsal nights; alumni and all age corps typically don't have 150 marching members plus staff for rehearsals, and usually DCI corps will have storage needs for their equipment-in alumni corps particularly, members usually take their equipment/unis home with them and what storage needs remain are usually in someone's garage, barn, unused corner of a marching member's company's warehouse, etc.

[BRASSO]

Know a few Korea Vets who felt they didn't get that great of a welcome from the WWI/WWII vets at the local Posts. The thought was the Korea vets didn't win "their war". On the other hand the career military in Korea had a lot of WWII vets so the "Korea War" only vets didn't make that large of a percentage of AL members.

Some of this info I read somewhere (forget) and some I heard first hand from that guy who has the Legion magazine (one of the Korea only group).

It was a different time too. A guy coming back from WW1 and WW2 could take care of his family on his paycheck alone. So he had the time to swing by the VFW or AL Post a few nites a week. But once the costs of living went up with taxes and such, more families needed 2 incomes to make it. With more Mothers going into the workforce, many of the Men ( and now Women ) simply had little time left over with the kids, to go and hang out at the local VFW, and AL.

Not only VFW and AL membership has waned, look at the Shriners, Mason's, Elks, Moose, etc. They all are losing members as the average age is beginning to inch higher and higher every year. Many families are simply strapped for time just trying to make ends meet, and simply don't have the time to hang out with the fraternal boys and gals a few nites a week anymore.

Edited December 17, 2009 by BRASSO

[Bob984]

Many of returning Vets from Vietnam felt they had little in common with the Vets from WW2 and Korea. The returning Vets from those wars came home to the public as conquering heros..... while the Vietnam Vets, despite winning most of the ground fighting had their Goverment call for retreat under public pressure, and these Vets came home to confusion, catcalls, chaos, etc during that time period.. As such, most of the Vietnam era Vets couldn't wait to put it all behind them and get on with their personal lives and careers. And so few of them joined the AL and VFW posts. Then in the 80's early 90's, some of the returning Vets in these decades did join as members of some of the VFW's and AL's Posts until we saw a peak membership in the late 90's. It has essentially been an ebb and flow of membership since WW1. But with the membership numbers decidedly more on a downward curve.

I knew of a Vietam "hero" who joined a VFW post shortly after his return. He went into the bar, and there were a handful of WWII vets at the other end. He overheard them mention to the bartender, "who's that guy".....the bartender replied, "a new guy....was in 'Nam". "What a bunch of losers" was the reply from one of the WWII guys. This guy picked up his beer glass, kept his composure, walked right by them, staring them in the face, and smashed his bar glass down on the bar and walked out, never to return. He told me it was everything he could do to restrain himself from punching the guy's lights out. This vet was in a group of 100 men when he started, and one of 3 who returned alive....they were on the front line in Hanoi. A sad, but true story, and I have heard that many Vietnam vets were mistreated, not only by the public, but older vets as well.....again, very sad.

GB