The Challenge

[Jeff Ream]

Is any-key brass the norm? If so, how many DCA horn lines play on G horns?

i'm guessing about 25%

[glory]

Have I taught you NOTHING? Perceived loudness (by humans) has nothing to do with decibel meters (mechanical measurement).

Believe it or not, if you put 10 people in front of a G line, and a Bb line, and have them decide which one is louder, it's entirely possible for them to perceive the G line as louder even if the decibel meter says otherwise! The answer lies in how the ear works. You'd have to pick a chord that seems to work well for both groups ...

Is this why the Bluecoats Boxer in 2008 sounded so yummy?

HH

[Mello Dude]

Richard wrote:

He wasn't saying wear leisure suits in drum corps. Wear them to work, to the club and to the mall. There's a reason out-of-date things are no longer used: preference of those that decide what product they want to use. Everyone uses what they think is the best option (weighing costs and benefits of course). You don't wear leisure suits because your opinion is that they look bad. Corps don't use Gs because they're opinion is that a Bb line sounds better. I'm sure Disco Stu wants everyone to bring back the leisure suit too. After all, those were the good old days and people looked so much better.

How out of date is a C trumpet? How out of date is a D trumpet? Actually, the argument that Bb lines sound better was NEVER the argument that DCI put forward..HUGE and often mis-stated fallacy. BTW, people did look better then...possibly because there weren't so many obese people around despite clothing.

From Peter Bond's Paper to DCI:

*Â "The key of the instrument doesn't make a difference."

Wrong. The key is determined by the length of tubing (and proportionally larger bell). You can

play the same pitch on different length instruments, but the longer instrument will have a

"deeper", "richer" sound (due to more overtones and a lower fundamental). This difference is

subtle at the space of a half-step (A to Bb trumpet, D to Eb), more obvious at the whole step (Bb to C trumpet), and at a minor third (G to Bb), anybody can tell. The sonority and (potential) power

is markedly different. I have conducted playing tests with some of my colleagues in the MET

Orchestra and it's "no contest"; a trumpet in low G can acoustically obliterate a professional Bb

trumpet with ease. This difference x 30 players is enormous.

*Â "Bb trumpets are better instruments."

A useful metaphor is that of a Ferrari Grand Prix racing machine and a Honda Civic. Which is

the better car? They are designed for completely different purposes. The Civic won't fare well at

the track in Monte Carlo, and the Ferrari is useless in stop-and-go traffic. The Bb trumpet is the

superior instrument indoors, where there is an acoustic resonance. The G bugle played in the

same register indoors is unwieldy, and at a fortissimo sounds positively apocalyptic. Outdoors,

where there is little or no reinforcing acoustic, and tremendous volume is required to reach the

audience, the GÂ bugle-although not of the same quality construction as a professional Bb

trumpet-projects a robust sound to the stands (in the hands of a well trained player), and the Bb

trumpet sounds nasal and puny by comparison.

* "Bb trumpets are better in tune (thereby potentially louder, and of course, in tune)."

Yes. A professional model Bb trumpet played correctly has superior pitch tendencies. A student

instrument; less so. Some G sopranos (3-valve) I have played are appalling, others; no problem.

Bugles are not built with the same quality control or care as top-of-the-line Bb trumpets. There

are more "lemons".

In my experience, the player's technique and "ears" are by far the bigger intonation variable. A

player who plays the one out of tune is no better on the other instrument. Likewise, a player with

good pitch can play both instruments well. I don't mean to minimize the frustrating effects of

poor instruments- some of them are truly awful- and every horn should be tested by a competent

player before purchase, just as you would a personal Bb trumpet. An in-tune horn line is louder

than an out-of-tune line, but the G instruments will always win the volume contest, and they can

be played with splendid intonation. That's where teaching comes in.

I should also mention that marching band trumpeters very often create a distorted and

out-of-tune sound on their Bb's in an effort to "fill a stadium" or emulate a corps sound.

* "Can't they design a big Bb trumpet with the same tone?"

No. There's no getting around the acoustics of that longer tubing. Furthermore, mouthpieces,

tubing, bores, tapers and bells only work together within a limited range of sizes and

proportions. For instance, American Bb trumpet bore sizes only range from .459 to .470. Beyond

that, it doesn't work any more for the notes we need to play. An extreme example is that of a

trumpet player buzzing his or her mouthpiece in a baritone or trombone as many of us did in

middle school band. Funny sound.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Mello Dude

[Jeff Ream]

Is this why the Bluecoats Boxer in 2008 sounded so yummy?

HH

it helped when they weren't moving and crammed up front...staging can be everything

[Richard]

How out of date is a C trumpet? How out of date is a D trumpet? Actually, the argument that Bb lines sound better was NEVER the argument that DCI put forward..HUGE and often mis-stated fallacy. BTW, people did look better then...possibly because there weren't so many obese people around despite clothing.

The rule proposal itself may not have cited that Bbs "sound better", but that has to be part of the reason that corps have switched to it. I find it hard to believe that corps across the country all said "let's switch our brassline to a key that sounds worse than our current key!"

I'm not saying G bugles are terrible (I even marched one) and I agree that they can produce deep, resonant sounds better than a comparable Bb instrument, but the skill required to make a G bugle sound incredible is significantly more than the skill required to make a Bb horn sound good (good being a measure of intonation and tone quality, primarily). A G bugle in the hands of an inexperienced player will usually sound worse than a Bb horn played by the same player.

Call it the 'wussification' of drum corps if you like, but if I was a corps director and I could make a less-talented brassline sound better by switching keys, then I certainly would do it.

EDIT: And feel free to bust out that leisure suit.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Richard

[audiodb]

Does anyone besides me recognize this as a tremendous fallacy? How is this a barrier for entry when we're talking about World Class? If your corps is financially stable enough for World Class (and good enough to challenge for a finals spot), then your organization should be able to budget for Bbs, Amps, Props, Trucks and whatever else. This hypothetical group didn't make top 12 overnight, they built up their programming and talent over the years, which is plenty of time to budget for these "requirements" to compete at the highest level.

Does anyone besides me recognize this as just the sort of elitist attitude that has gotten us from 400 corps to 40?

Sorry to be so blunt above....but the thought process you give here is part of the problem. We're already touring cross-country, so why not another week on the road? We're already spending $250,000 a year, so what's another $10,000 on amps, or electronic instruments? Two glaring problems with that attitude:

1. The "we" in those statements is the voting membership (the "haves")....but they enact rules and policies that apply to both the "haves" and the "have-nots".

2. Drum corps was already too expensive in 1971. One of the reasons DCI was formed was to cope with that reality. Changes that increase the cost of equipping a competitive world-class corps erode away any effort to maintain the financial viability of that brand of drum corps.

You can compete in Open Class without amps. You can compete in Open Class without Bbs even (although I imagine they're cheaper to come buy used than Gs are now-a-days). You can charter 1 or 2 busses and a box truck and make Open Class finals. Yes, the costs are much greater for the best corps, but part of the modern gig is being financially stable. Amps are not a barrier to entry into drum corps.

Open-class is a different story vs. world-class.

Oh, and Legends in Open Class doesn't own horns. I think they won most improved open class corps this year and they appear to be on an intelligent and stable path to success. Would they be as stable if they had to shell out the money for a set of Gs? Possibly, but it's an added expense that they were spared because of the "any key" rule.

Not necessarily. There is no law prohibiting the leasing or borrowing of G horns.

Gold also uses non-corps horns I believe (which is in part due to their affiliation with the Hawthorne school district). While they've recently run up against some political issues, they were a very competitive group in the west coast circuit who were able to reduce overhead expenses because of the any key brass rule.

I wouldn't use Gold as your shining example of startup stability in the new millenium, given recent events.

[JimF-LowBari]

The rule proposal itself may not have cited that Bbs "sound better", but that has to be part of the reason that corps have switched to it. I find it hard to believe that corps across the country all said "let's switch our brassline to a key that sounds worse than our current key!"

Check post #81 in this thread and later discussion.....

Irony alert: Two of the reasons were to help corps with their finances. Then DCI added to the expenses with amps and electronics.

Edited January 28, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari

[audiodb]

The rule proposal itself may not have cited that Bbs "sound better", but that has to be part of the reason that corps have switched to it. I find it hard to believe that corps across the country all said "let's switch our brassline to a key that sounds worse than our current key!"

So why did marching units all over the globe switch from Bb/F to G in the '70s, '80s and '90s?

[Mello Dude]

The rule proposal itself may not have cited that Bbs "sound better", but that has to be part of the reason that corps have switched to it. I find it hard to believe that corps across the country all said "let's switch our brassline to a key that sounds worse than our current key!"

I'm not saying G bugles are terrible (I even marched one) and I agree that they can produce deep, resonant sounds better than a comparable Bb instrument, but the skill required to make a G bugle sound incredible is significantly more than the skill required to make a Bb horn sound good (good being a measure of intonation and tone quality, primarily). A G bugle in the hands of an inexperienced player will usually sound worse than a Bb horn played by the same player.

Call it the 'wussification' of drum corps if you like, but if I was a corps director and I could make a less-talented brassline sound better by switching keys, then I certainly would do it.

EDIT: And feel free to bust out that leisure suit.

No, actually the reasons were all about money. The converse was true that some, that truly understood what was at stake, were VERY concerned that by pressing the easy button drum corps would lose it's uniqueness of sound.

I would not say brass lines are less-talented than a decade or two ago, but one does have to ponder that possibility.

PS: That is what Halloween is for.

[glory]

it helped when they weren't moving and crammed up front...staging can be everything

True. But we get that all the time. There was something else that made Boxer shine. Could it be as simple as key?

HH