Could the new pre-show rule lead to woodwinds?

[audiodb]

How many? Who outside of the Troopers toured 'extensively' before 1972? Maybe Santa Clara in 1971...and I guess the Argonne Rebels in 71. Not a lot of 'extensive' touring before that. The typical corps had one long tour of a week or two, and some long weekends to travel outside of their area, but hardly 'extensive' touring on any large scale.

I said they "began more extensive touring" before DCI.

And let's clear up the misconception in your post. Before Troopers, corps virtually never "toured". Even a Nationals trip would involve traveling straight there and back, leaving home for only a few days at a time....and Nationals was the only contest worth leaving the home region for. That began to change in the mid-to-late 1960s, as other major contests developed and top corps learned from the example Troopers set.

By 1971, you had SCV, Anaheim, Troopers all taking three-week tours through the Midwest leading to World Open in July....and then a second tour of two weeks in the Plains states leading to VFW in Dallas. Argonne, Blue Stars, Madison Scouts took both of those tours as well, but their hometowns were on the tour route, so theirs were both two-week tours rather than a three-week and a two-week. Blue Rock just did a two-week tour to U.S. Open and VFW, while your corps, 27th and BAC just went to VFW without any other contests en route.

But it IS true...absolutely. You can deny it all YOU want to somehow try and blame DCI for the failure of the local corps, but it's just not true. Not remotely.

Your rhetoric is getting old. Again, to correct all your mischaracterizations:

1. DCI has some culpability regarding the decline in number of corps. However, neither rhetorical extreme (i.e. "DCI killed them all" vs. "DCI had nothing to do with it") is true.

2. The corps we've lost were not all "local corps". Some were local, some were regional, and some were national, each with different touring/travel patterns.

3. The majority of North American junior corps competing 1972-2009 were involved in DCI-sanctioned events.

4. An even wider majority of corps were affected by DCI as their rulebook was adopted by other circuits, and as DCI competed with and/or joined forces with other contest sponsors.

[Jeff Ream]

I said they "began more extensive touring" before DCI.

And let's clear up the misconception in your post. Before Troopers, corps virtually never "toured". Even a Nationals trip would involve traveling straight there and back, leaving home for only a few days at a time....and Nationals was the only contest worth leaving the home region for. That began to change in the mid-to-late 1960s, as other major contests developed and top corps learned from the example Troopers set.

By 1971, you had SCV, Anaheim, Troopers all taking three-week tours through the Midwest leading to World Open in July....and then a second tour of two weeks in the Plains states leading to VFW in Dallas. Argonne, Blue Stars, Madison Scouts took both of those tours as well, but their hometowns were on the tour route, so theirs were both two-week tours rather than a three-week and a two-week. Blue Rock just did a two-week tour to U.S. Open and VFW, while your corps, 27th and BAC just went to VFW without any other contests en route.

Your rhetoric is getting old. Again, to correct all your mischaracterizations:

1. DCI has some culpability regarding the decline in number of corps. However, neither rhetorical extreme (i.e. "DCI killed them all" vs. "DCI had nothing to do with it") is true.

2. The corps we've lost were not all "local corps". Some were local, some were regional, and some were national, each with different touring/travel patterns.

3. The majority of North American junior corps competing 1972-2009 were involved in DCI-sanctioned events.

4. An even wider majority of corps were affected by DCI as their rulebook was adopted by other circuits, and as DCI competed with and/or joined forces with other contest sponsors.

good points.

no DCI isn't the blame all answer. But it's not blameless either

[Kamarag]

good points.

no DCI isn't the blame all answer. But it's not blameless either

Where DCI bears the brunt of the blame is not so much because of anything it did directly, but rather because of fallout from the paradigm shift away from the old VFW/CYO support system, and what they didn't do as a result.

Most of the people running the corps were really good drum corps people, but they were not good businessmen. They weren't prepared for the fiscal reality with becoming truly independent organizations, and as a result, corps died off left and right.

The really sad fact is that DCI refused to recognize this for several decades, and didn't put any kind of procedures in place to ensure financial survivability of corps entering competition (especially in World Class). As of right now, there are exactly two corps that have gone through the complex and exhaustive process to become a world class corps. It will never happen, but the DCI directors should require EVERY current world class corps to go through the evaluation process every few years.

[Dave]

The economic meltdown that was the 1970s didn't help the situation either.

[Jeff Ream]

Where DCI bears the brunt of the blame is not so much because of anything it did directly, but rather because of fallout from the paradigm shift away from the old VFW/CYO support system, and what they didn't do as a result.

Most of the people running the corps were really good drum corps people, but they were not good businessmen. They weren't prepared for the fiscal reality with becoming truly independent organizations, and as a result, corps died off left and right.

The really sad fact is that DCI refused to recognize this for several decades, and didn't put any kind of procedures in place to ensure financial survivability of corps entering competition (especially in World Class). As of right now, there are exactly two corps that have gone through the complex and exhaustive process to become a world class corps. It will never happen, but the DCI directors should require EVERY current world class corps to go through the evaluation process every few years.

I agree with this statement 100% on all levels.

[pearlsnaredrummer77]

R.I.P. Drum Corps :w00t: :flower: :flower:

Sadly true regarding junior corps. I hope DCA and Alumni units will still continue the brass/percussion/guard format.

[cowtown]

Where DCI bears the brunt of the blame is not so much because of anything it did directly, but rather because of fallout from the paradigm shift away from the old VFW/CYO support system, and what they didn't do as a result.

I disagree, I blame DCI for tanking DCM when they tried to take over the championship show, then pulled their corps from the championship show and thusly, from the DCM circuit. DCM limped on for another year but without the big corps in their shows, the coffers dried up, then many shows for little corps dried up then the little corps went bye-bye

It was all very deliberate and pretty much a money, power grab

it was better when there were more options. With more circuits DCI was less responsible for the little, regional corps

Look at the midwest corps right around the years DCI microsofted DCM into oblivion

why did DC East die?

Edited February 16, 2010 by cowtown

[Kamarag]

I disagree, I blame DCI for tanking DCM when they tried to take over the championship show, then pulled their corps from the championship show and thusly, from the DCM circuit. DCM limped on for another year but without the big corps in their shows, the coffers dried up, then many shows for little corps dried up then the little corps went bye-bye

Another example of cowtown bending the truth to make his point. "DCI" didn't pull anyone from anything, not even DCM. Some world class (open/div 1 class at the time) decided that the revenue sharing model of performance payouts weren't fair to the corps pulling in the crowds, and were, in effect, subsidizing the smaller corps. When DCM resisted efforts to make a more fair payout system, some of those corps left the circuit.

DCI held no secret vote to destroy DCM, and no one issued any commandments from on high. It really came down to forcing the Cavaliers to subsidize the Racine Scouts (just an example, don't flame me). There were other issues as well, but that was the main one.

Would a tiered payout system have been bad? No. Would it have saved DCM? Probably, at least for a while.

[cowtown]

Another example of cowtown bending the truth to make his point. "DCI" didn't pull anyone from anything, not even DCM. Some world class (open/div 1 class at the time) decided that the revenue sharing model of performance payouts weren't fair to the corps pulling in the crowds, and were, in effect, subsidizing the smaller corps. When DCM resisted efforts to make a more fair payout system, some of those corps left the circuit.

DCI held no secret vote to destroy DCM, and no one issued any commandments from on high. It really came down to forcing the Cavaliers to subsidize the Racine Scouts (just an example, don't flame me). There were other issues as well, but that was the main one.

Would a tiered payout system have been bad? No. Would it have saved DCM? Probably, at least for a while.

Another example of cowtown bending the truth?

That’s rather insulting, wrong and I consider it a personal attack

More so considering your post backs up mine just with different language and a few strawmen thrown in (secret vote, where did that come from....really?)

I see that statement as slander, an attempt to discredit me as a poster so that you can dismiss my point of view and spin DCI as some sort of saint.

Corps wanted more money from DCM so they pulled out of the show. Corps are DCI, therefore DCI pulled their corps, just as we both said

This is almost becoming a trend here, so when a corps is allowed in world class do they also have to supply a DCI apologist to spin ‘the truth’ and attack the detractors on DCP?

I mean between you and Bob, well if it walks like a duck

hey wait, you're the guy that tried to imply I didn't go to finals because I said the sound was bad....

[Kamarag]

This is almost becoming a trend here, so when a corps is allowed in world class do they also have to supply a DCI apologist to spin ‘the truth’ and attack the detractors on DCP?

I mean between you and Bob, well if it walks like a duck

hey wait, you're the guy that tried to imply I didn't go to finals because I said the sound was bad....

I have no idea why you did or didn't go to finals. I'm also not a DCI apologist...ask Jeff Ream. I do, however, value the truth. The actual one, not one that's spun. My posting history stands for itself, as does yours.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Kamarag