Could the new pre-show rule lead to woodwinds?

[jjeffeory]

So did shows become less esoteric as attendance increased into the 2000s?

Yes, though you have the order of events reversed.

[BRASSO]

I've generally been in favor of the recent changes , though I'm opposed to woodwinds. One thing I'm curious about: Who dreamed up the argument that all these changes (and I'm including the addition of woodwinds here) somehow make drum corps more attractive to band kids. Where did this come from? Because it certainly didn't come out of actual discussions with band students.

It's interesting that both sides in the eternal argument between progress and tradition have a part of the fanbase they inscribe their beliefs onto in order to make a point. On one side you have the band kids, who apparently want drum corps to look just like band. On the other, you have the mysterious, elusive "casual fan" who was allegedly driven away by the bogeyman of esotericism. The one common thread is the lack of systematic evidence for these claims.

I have not met a single fan of the 70's, 80's, 90's that stopped following the activity because " their Corps died ". Almost without exception they told me they left because the shows increasingly for THEM did not have the appeal as it did from earlier decades. While this is only anecdotal evidence ( and thus fraught with danger in making conclusions from it ) my personal experience seems to run counter to the claim that the biggest reason for fan loss was due to the fan's personal Corps folding. I believe some of the loss is due to loss of Corps, but quite a bit of it can not be so easily explained away as " loss of Corps, plain and simple ".

Edited February 26, 2010 by BRASSO

[jjeffeory]

I have not met a single fan of the 70's, 80's, 90's that stopped following the activity because " their Corps died ". Almost without exception they told me they left because the shows increasingly for THEM did not have the appeal as it did from earlier decades. While this is only anecdotal evidence ( and thus fraught with danger in making conclusions from it ) my personal experience seems to run counter to the claim that the biggest reason for fan loss was due to the fan's personal Corps folding. I believe some of the loss is due to loss of Corps, but quite a bit of it can not be so easily explained away as " loss of Corps, plain and simple ".

I agree. I, and many of my friends stopped going to many shows from '95 - ''99 based on quite a few shows of the trends we saw during the '93 & '94 seasons. ( No, not Star '93. I loved that show). For me, and you're all probably going to flame me, some of the shows that really turned us off were shows like:

Rituals, Not the Nutcracker , Cirque De Magique, Part Deux, A Joyful Celebration, Danse Animale, Stormworks, Twelve Seconds to the Moon, The Magnificat, Music of Ron Nelson ( with those arrangements), Pan American Sketches, Celebration, Carnivale: Celebrations for Sinner and Saint, Heroes Then and Now: The Music of Alfred Reed, A Cappella Celebration, Classical Innovations, The Big Apple, Voices, etc...

Shows have gotten much better OVERALL since 2000 but DCI has lost a ton of fans from just the time period above, imho...

Please don't flame me too badly, I've included my own corps in the list of cursed shows...

Edited February 26, 2010 by jjeffeory

[BRASSO]

I agree. I, and many of my friends stopped going to many shows from '95 - ''99 based on quite a few shows of the trends we saw during the '93 & '94 seasons. ( No, not Star '93. I loved that show). For me, and you're all probably going to flame me, some of the shows that really turned us off were shows like:

Rituals, Not the Nutcracker , Cirque De Magique, Part Deux, A Joyful Celebration, Danse Animale, Stormworks, Twelve Seconds to the Moon, The Magnificat, Music of Ron Nelson ( with those arrangements), Pan American Sketches, Celebration, Carnivale: Celebrations for Sinner and Saint, Heroes Then and Now: The Music of Alfred Reed, A Cappella Celebration, Classical Innovations, The Big Apple, Voices, etc...

Shows have gotten much better OVERALL since 2000 but DCI has lost a ton of fans from just the time period above, imho...

Please don't flame me too badly, I've included my own corps in the list of cursed shows...

No flame from me on this. I liked a few on this list above, but I understand your central point.

[glory]

This notion that attendance fell off rapidly in the early 1990s solely as a result of programming choices is flimsy at best.

In the first place, it’s anecdotal. So far as we know, there was no scientific marketing study with conclusive data to support such a suggestion. But let’s not worry too much about that. It is reasonable that shifting trends in programming frustrated some fans to the point of staying home. Fine.

Who stayed home is the more important point. In any given crowd at any given DCI in the 80s, there would be family members of various corps in the seats among the others attending. We can agree on that, can’t we? Only as the 80s progress, the West Petchooch Pearpickers and a host of corps like it succumbed. No family members at the next DCI from there. And because the number of corps is shrinking, there are no complementary families to take their place. The same is true for friends of the members. And it’s true as well even for members, not all of whom from any era make drum corps a lifelong commitment.

Over the space of a decade, as hundreds of corps disappeared, hundreds and thousands of would-be fans did too. No doubt this phenomenon was true to an extent in prior eras too. Only it was mostly invisible because new corps arose and their families and friends arrived to obscure the losses.

Of course these weren’t the only empty seats. Some of the fans who survived even after their corps were extinct made the choice to stay home in the 1990s because they were frustrated by the programming. None of us think that was the first time that happened, do we? Many believe that’s happening today. And most reasonable minds would concede that even in the 70s and 80s, there were traditionalists who couldn’t grasp the genius of a Bobby Hoffman or a George Zingali. Some chose exile rather than accept the sideline entry or perceived slights against the American flag.

The difference by 1992 is there was no reservoir of replacements to offset the frustration migration. What wasn’t hardly noticeable in 1982 was obvious it seemed in 1992 though not because things had changed profoundly. It seemed obvious - even if the reality wasn’t - because the exit of the unhappy was more apparent than the entrance of the hopeful.

Vickers conclusion about discontent likely isn’t wrong. It’s just not the whole story. The drum corps community unraveled in the 80s long before amps and other such travesties. The unwelcome reverb would only be heard after.

HH

[The Other Mike]

The drum corps community unraveled in the 80s long before amps and other such travesties. The unwelcome reverb would only be heard after.

HH

Now that was worth reading the whole post for.

[glory]

I have not met a single fan of the 70's, 80's, 90's that stopped following the activity because " their Corps died ". Almost without exception they told me they left because the shows increasingly for THEM did not have the appeal as it did from earlier decades...

Of course you didn't. They weren't there for you to meet them. You only met the ones who continued attending. All the rest - the majority in fact - stopped attending long before.

HH

[Fred Windish]

I think JimF-3rdBari alluded to what the current problem is. In order to be generally popular, i.e. large crowds, DCI needs to present an event that is easy to understand, fun, maybe even uplifting. Should DCI present an event the casual viewer finds difficult to decipher, it's growth potential is limited.

I believe the current DCI event comes up short. Not just in my eye, but also to the eye of the casual viewer. The effort should be on designing the most marketable product possible. For me, that's not yet been achieved.

You know, after seeing the Cadets' 2006 show live, I thought "Now, that would sell to the masses." It was well done, PLUS theatrical in a way that would satisfy anyone who just walked in. Yes, to the drum corps purist it was too over-the-top, but I believed it was worth exploring for its potential of wide-spread interest.

The key words are wide-spread interest. If that somehow includes woodwinds (Geez, I hope not) than fine.

[BRASSO]

This notion that attendance fell off rapidly in the early 1990s solely as a result of programming choices is flimsy at best.

In the first place, it’s anecdotal. So far as we know, there was no scientific marketing study with conclusive data to support such a suggestion. But let’s not worry too much about that. It is reasonable that shifting trends in programming frustrated some fans to the point of staying home. Fine.

Who stayed home is the more important point. In any given crowd at any given DCI in the 80s, there would be family members of various corps in the seats among the others attending. We can agree on that, can’t we? Only as the 80s progress, the West Petchooch Pearpickers and a host of corps like it succumbed. No family members at the next DCI from there. And because the number of corps is shrinking, there are no complementary families to take their place. The same is true for friends of the members. And it’s true as well even for members, not all of whom from any era make drum corps a lifelong commitment.

Over the space of a decade, as hundreds of corps disappeared, hundreds and thousands of would-be fans did too. No doubt this phenomenon was true to an extent in prior eras too. Only it was mostly invisible because new corps arose and their families and friends arrived to obscure the losses.

Of course these weren’t the only empty seats. Some of the fans who survived even after their corps were extinct made the choice to stay home in the 1990s because they were frustrated by the programming. None of us think that was the first time that happened, do we? Many believe that’s happening today. And most reasonable minds would concede that even in the 70s and 80s, there were traditionalists who couldn’t grasp the genius of a Bobby Hoffman or a George Zingali. Some chose exile rather than accept the sideline entry or perceived slights against the American flag.

The difference by 1992 is there was no reservoir of replacements to offset the frustration migration. What wasn’t hardly noticeable in 1982 was obvious it seemed in 1992 though not because things had changed profoundly. It seemed obvious - even if the reality wasn’t - because the exit of the unhappy was more apparent than the entrance of the hopeful.

Vickers conclusion about discontent likely isn’t wrong. It’s just not the whole story. The drum corps community unraveled in the 80s long before amps and other such travesties. The unwelcome reverb would only be heard after.

HH

I'm trying to determine the last time a DCI Corps Director from a prominent DCI Corps bemoaned the fact that in his observations of late, the DCI Corps have not been getting the positive responses from audiences that in previous decades the DCI Corps had received. He said this just a few weeks ago. He said he's perplexed with this, particularly given the fact that the overall talent is stronger, and staff have more instrumentation resources available to them.

But I'm frankly drawing a blank. I don't recall a Corps Director in any previous era puzzled by such questions of audience response to programming of the DCI Corps as a group. Then again, perhaps others on here can point out examples of such utterances by Corps Directors before on how progamming by many of the DCI Corps appeared to be generating tepid responses on the part of audiences compared to earlier eras.

Edited February 26, 2010 by BRASSO

[Mello Dude]

They sound much better using appropriate mallets and playing technique, which requires miccing. And...more than one instrument means more than one part. I don't see a lot of doubling of one part.

Says who? Appropriate playing technique is tied to the environment to which one has to play in. Right now the pit sounds completely un-natural to say the least, finger cymbals overpowering the horn line in soft areas of the show, etc. You don't see or hear any doubling..interesting.