Changes in DCI?

[Jeff Ream]

Read the post that Mike quoted. He was accurate in his quote.

yeah so one guy said it. yet you make it out to be a ton of people wishing for it.

[dbc03]

And I'll respond the same way I did the last time you said this. When the Combine was formed, they broke away from VFW and didn't mind anyone else coming along. In fact they wanted everyone to come along. These 7 don't want anyone to come along. They want everything to themselves. Not quite history repeating.

[citation needed]

[audiodb]

Traveling the globe to experience different cultures would probably be of great value to a youth as well. But who's going to pay for the trip? This is an extreme example, though it's not meant to be a straw man. This is to point out that even the best experiences imaginable must be provided for and funded. There is certainly value to what the Racine Scouts are doing, but is it worth it at the cost?

Evidently, the kids, staff and supporters of the Racine Scouts think so.

To keep a drum corps afloat, you need to bring in dollars to cover the costs, and to bring in dollars you need to provide value to those outside your organization and not just to the youths. Some modicum of "fan" popularity is required, whether those fans are paying for entertainment or for charity.

That is not necessarily true. Local drum corps operated for decades with widely varying audience support (or lack thereof), surviving on member fees, sponsorships and fundraising efforts.

Bully for you. Seriously, I'm happy you found value in the Racine Scouts' performance. But even you admitted that the value you found did not come from entertainment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it came from seeing those kids give their best effort in the pursuit of excellence. It came from knowing how much they had achieved, regardless of the final product. There is value in the achievement, I absolutely agree. However I hope we also agree that this is a different form of entertainment than what is provided by perennial World Class finalists.

Yes. But we're not paying them the same as perennial world-class finalists either, so what's the problem?

Perhaps rather than remain starry eyed about the noble goal of corps like the Racine Scouts, we should recognize the uneven field on which they compete. I'm not talking about scores and placement, I'm talking about competing for dollars and attention. This is not to be spiteful, this is to be realistic. The national tour works great for a corps like SCV with a national presence. A corps like the Racine Scouts has much more modest short term goals. Let's recognize that.

And let's recognize that the Racine Scouts don't tour for eight weeks straight, either. So what's the problem?

Absolutely I do. From what I'm hearing, it sounds like the proposal is for a new class separate from the current Open and World classes. If true, I would hope that any corps is capable of eventually moving up to this class, should they desire it, just as corps today are capable of moving up from Open to World class.

In what way would it possibly help to take a smaller-than-ever junior activity and cut it up into even smaller pieces?

Look, I'm not arguing at all for corps like the Racine Scouts to be destroyed.

Yeah, you are. Maybe you don't mean to, but that will be the likely result.

I also see the value in what they and corps like them provide. Being in my high school's marching band had a profound effect on who I am as a person, and I want everyone to have the same or similar opportunity. The idea to which I am responding is the complaint I keep hearing that 'if the top corps leave, the remaining corps will collapse'. Why??? Let's unpack that complaint.

It's not rocket science. Take any activity with an established competitive hierarchy, and separate the top half from the bottom half. Which way will more fans go - top or bottom?

Now, apply this elitist action to an activity that is clearly financially challenged. Most of the corps and circuits have folded over time, largely due to finances; those who persist must raise six-figure sums annually from external fundraising efforts (i.e. other than show revenue, souvies or member fees). What do you think will happen if you cut this activity in half like that? Honestly?

Of course, I don't need your answer....we have already tried it. DCM....gone in two years. The DCI Atlantic Division....dozens of corps reduced to a handful in ten years. And out West, where they still work together, there's actually been growth in that same time period!

What the Racine Scouts offer is a good thing, but if they are so reliant on other drum corps organizations that the Scouts could not exist without their support then it's perhaps time to rethink the current structure. Isn't this exactly why many on DCP have called for a return to a more regional approach to the activity?

It's not that simple....and my own response here will be oversimplified. A local or regional operating model can be cheaper, and can also provide less of a barrier to entry for members with other obligations (work, school, $$$, etc.) that keep them from making the 11-week, $3,000 commitment some world-class corps demand. Unfortunately, 40 years of activity marketing focus on national touring has destroyed all but a few small pockets of interest in anything else. You can't force an existing open-class corps to stay home if 95% of their members would quit if their corps doesn't travel to championships.

You are far too hung up on placements. There is no direct competition in drum corps. The 2010 show produced by the Cavaliers will have no direct effect on how entertained I am by the Cadets. If I go to a midseason show and see Crown perform, I don't think less of their product just because the Bluecoats aren't there to place (likely) below them.

And you assume everyone else thinks that way too?

There is competition in drum corps. Competition is part of the "draw" of a drum corps event. Some fans are emotionally invested in rooting for their favorite corps to the exclusion of all others. I know people like that, who only attend shows with "their" corps in the lineup, and who only purchase audio, video or other souvenirs of "their" corps. And I know people who enjoy many different corps as you and I do. Different strokes....

If you had a chance to read what Jeff posted from 1997, look at the priorities proposed for each subset of corps. The top groups were defined as those for whom entertainment was the top priority. In light of what I've said above, I would suggest that this be an excellent definition of what it means to be an "elite" corps.

That would make the Velvet Knights an elite corps for sure. The Cadets might be out of luck, though, as they are more focused on making "magnificent human beings" through the arts. Do they have it wrong?

I am at a loss. I cannot understand how elitism became so pervasive. Why do so many people fail to realize that DCI's elite corps can't prop themselves up on the backs of the other corps forever? Eventually, you run out of "other corps"....unless you adopt a model that works for all the corps.

Funny how the 1997 position papers were reposted in this thread. Scott Stewart had a quote that comes as close as any to what I'm trying to convey:

"Drum corps is a unique and valuable, but relatively small, fragile mini-society which will only survive based on cooperation and fraternalism among the participants. The leadership must share an understanding of what the foundational building blocks are that make its existence worthwhile. Drum corps cannot operate on the same value system that the rest of our society does. It must aspire to a higher, more altruistic set of standards and values if it is to continue."

[audiodb]

Of course, the ultimate responsibility lies of course with us, the fans. Starting in 1972, we gave DCI its audiences and its revenues. We ignored the little corps and allowed the smaller circuits to die when the big boys abandoned them. DCI knows this, and has always acted accordingly, in its own self-interest. If we want DCI, and the elite corps, to behave differently it has to start with the fans.

Why? Even a cannibal can be smart enough to realize when their food supply is running out.

[Stu]

True, but take a look at any university sports program (possibly high school, too), and you see a nearly identical scenario. The big draws are typically men's basketball and/or football. Needless to say, those are not the only sports in that program, but it's common knowledge that the revenue streams drawn from those big-ticket sports help to support all the other sports and athletic programs under that umbrella. A similar hierarchy exists within DCI, and personally I think that's as it should be. Anything else is, IMO, selfish and narrow-minded.

The equitability you are referring to did not come from within the noble acts of the NCAA Board of Directors. In university sports it took a 1972 Federal law from outside of the NCAA, Title IX, for the situation you are referring to become equitable. The current structure in DCI is that the WC corps’ have all the voting power. Do you really think that the WC directors would vote in a similar type rule for DCI to take care of the lower division corps'? Or do you think that it will have to be thrust upon them from an outside source like what it took to get NCAA to become more equitable?

[dcpincollector]

yeah so one guy said it. yet you make it out to be a ton of people wishing for it.

I did not say that, but. it is pretty easy to see that his viewpoint is shared by others (I have no idea how many).

One (IMO) is too many (IMO)!!

[Fred Windish]

This has all been fascinating speculation, for sure. I have no idea if anything significant about the activity is about to change, but I'm ready for something different. How different? Well, I guess we'll see (when it happens).

I have come to the conclusion our "art form" no longer works as well as it once did, given today's world. Earlier, I posted thoughts about my current view of the medium. For the first time (sorry) I've been watching the DCI Championships in Hi-Def, on the big screen with surround sound and some post production. That DCI product is absolutely stunning to me, more so than what I experience outdoors on a football field with all the limitations inherent there.

Our "big guns" are capable of presenting something much different and on a grand scale. Something I would hope is more marketable and more controlled. It's my view, our brand of brass, percussion, pageantry, and movement can work work quite well for the masses somewhere other than on football fields. I'm hopeful the product can find new life as an arena attraction, without the same historic limitations we now endure. There can be room for something radically different presented by those who can. Certainly NOT a discard of what we already know, rather a additional new dimension.

I think back to my Blast! experience. I saw it three times. That was a new dimension of what I've enjoyed my entire life. It was fabulous! All around me were many who seemed to be seeing our product for the first time. . . they loved it! They did so in a controlled enviornment. Controlled in temperature, lighting, sound, comfort, etc. Even more, the performers were close enough for interaction with the audience. I can see our "thing" working well on a hockey-size stage. I'd buy in.

Is this concept a component of the radical change we now expect from some in DCI? I'd say yes, but not immediately. Seems to me, this kind of new dimension will ONLY occur if the "haves" break out and continue to evolve, to push the envelope. Perhaps, if there is now unrest, it's because the "haves" feel a need for something more than the current model to thrive.

I'm open to that future.

[Jeff Ream]

and some people root for Notre Dame, then Yankees and the Dallas Cowboys to fail.

is that the same in your eyes?

I did not say that, but. it is pretty easy to see that his viewpoint is shared by others (I have no idea how many).

One (IMO) is too many (IMO)!!

[Abbevillekid26]

Once again has this ever been proposed or is this again just pointless arguing?

[torn8o]

Drum Corps World is Reporting on Facebook that DCI decided on Major Changes that will effect the activity, does anyone know what this is all about?

DCW POST

I think I can help.

What happened is this. DCI decided that the only way to function properly was to regulate everyone to take this special medication before entering a stadium to view a drum corps show. What this will do is cause everyone to see drum corps as they've always wished to see it. For example, if George Hopkins were to enter the stadium as a spectator, he would have woodwinds, electronics...etc etc...On the other hand if your textbook old schooler enters a stadium, he will see drum corps ala Bridgemen 1980, etc etc etc.

Now here is the best part. DCI has commisioned me to create this special new drug and I am just days away from being the wealthiest man since the turn of the century. Isn't that neat?