Official DCP G7 Proposal Discussion Thread

[BOBSMYTH]

I'm with you,..............the Greedy 7 won't stop until they have all the marbles

Oh no! Say it ain't so....

You mean they want all the marbles, too?!?

[jwillis35]

these band directors have their areas. but if you're 5-8 years away from retirement, taking on the additional scheduling demands of a more active and maybe competitive marching band are not what you want.

Not saying I support it, but it is out there. I know one area of PA where they are waiting for several older guys to go so they can get new blood in there and build up their local circuit

Good point. But also consider that many band directors simply do not have the time to add any more to their load, no matter their age or ability. A band director's role is all-encompassing and really difficult. Concert Band, Wind Ensemble, Jazz Band, Marching Band, classes, private lessons, parents meetings, and more.

I guess my point is that it's fine if they want to emulate the corps to a certain extent, but they must be careful. In most situations out there you have 1, sometimes 2, band directors at a school. They might have help with percussion and flags, and maybe if they are lucky they have some help with marching and visual design. What they don't have is a staff of over 30 (like the corps do) to help teach the product. If the drum corps need over 30 staff and 12+ hours per day for 3 months of the year (1 month spring training and 2 months of tour, plus the camps), then how the heck can a band perform something similar with 2 weeks of band camp and 45 to 50 minutes of day when school starts? So the director must be careful when planning a show, especially if they wish to emulate the corps style wihtout going overboard.

My marching band at Mount Union performs a corps-style show for halftime and a Big Ten-style show for pre-game. I keep the corps-style as simple and basic as possible while striving to make it look good and work for the college gameday audience. Many high school bands do not. They go all the way, often operating much like drum corps in the fall.

If you're getting a drum corps-like experience in the fall, why do it in the summer? Only the diehards, who can't get enough of it, will try this. Many of the diehards, who have done a lot of corps, tend to march with G7/top 12 corps. They have moved around and by college age they are ready to march at the highest level. This benefits the G7.

I see very few things that benefit the smaller corps, or the less-competitive corps. With many HS bands operating like corps, there is little reason to march corps. And for the few that will ultimately do it, they often wait unitl they are good enough to be in the big corps, primarily because DCI's focus is on the G7 and has been for some time. They are the headliners and certainly do help to attract people to a show, but because of that the diehards are willing to wait until college (or senior year in HS) until they can make one of those corps. They figure "If I'm going to march, then it will be with one of those great [G7] corps. Why would I march with one of those other corps when my high school experience is just as good or better?"

You're darned is you don't highlight the top corps (due to marketing), and yet, if you do, you're darned because you place focus on the top end only.

I guess I just see things differently these days. Years ago I was all for high school band competitions and corps-style shows, and I still support that to some extent. But the movement in that direction has become reckless and self-centered in many instances. The public schools were supposed to introduce kids to music in a multitude of ways, through lots of various ensembles and musical styles. Beating the heck out of 11.5 minutes of music and drill for an entire fall just to clean it and compete at the highest level is what I call specialization of a very small aspect of music education, and frankly an over-glorification of a medium that was primarily funded by the schools for the purpose of football games.

I know there are students that love the competitive band thing. But there are many more that wonder why they can't just be in a marching band that goes to the football games for the sake of entertainment and nothing more. These are kids that have lives and other interests, yet they find themselves in these band because mom and dad want it, or because they do like to make music and enjoy the challenge, yet deep inside they would like to make some other kind of music and not just MARCHING BAND music. Many want more chamber ensemble, more jazz, more concert band, more musical, more orchestra, and so on. They don't always want to dedicate such a huge chunk of time to beating the crap out of 11.5 minutes of music for a lot fo the summer and most of a fall.

We can save the great American Drum & Bugle Corps, but to do so means understanding the difference between that and high-school/college band.

Drum corps = summer, no school, no classes, the corps have the kids 24/7 and have 20 to 30 staff members ready to fine tune and specialize while teaching 11.5 minutes of music and drill. The summer IS FOR specialization.

High School/College Marching Band = Fall, part of a much bigger picture, kids are in classes all day, homework, other interests, far less rehearsal time, far less staff, and different goals (comprehensive music education mixed with other arts and academics).

If we want to save drum corps, all the corps, then we need to change the focus of the fall. If high school students feel as though they are getting the drum corps experience in the fall, then there is no reason for them to engage in the summer. If they already have to raise large sums of cash for their fall endeavors, then how can they save money for summer? IF they are burned out from competition in the fall, why do summer? If they get exposed to high school competitions where there is a lot of "cheap" imitation going on (trying to be like the best corps but not even coming close), then perhaps their idea of corps is way off. How will they ever know?

Look, I love high school marching band and college marching band. I direct one. I love what music education can give to kids, regardless of what medium that education is taught from (marching, jazz, concert band). I believe a band director has the right to pursue what is best for his/her students. BUT, I also believe that it's a matter of FOCUS and truly understanding the comprehensive nature of one vs. the specialized nature of the other. If I had four weeks of summer training, 30 staff, a budget ONLY dedicated to marching band, and then 12 hours per day for 2 months to work on 11.5 minutes of music (and only ONE show for the entire fall), YEAH...my band would be amazing because we would have taken all the students' time and channled it to ONE thing.

Some of what irritates me (and I apologize for the rant) is that these arrogant G7 corps claim to be "World Class." REALLY???? Last time I looked, you have auditions, acquiring some very fine musicians out of the college ranks who are already good. They were good before you got them. You didn't have to teach these kids to read music, or start them on pitch and notation and rhythm concepts like an elementary- or middle-school teacher does. You use 30+ staff to do what a few band directors and maybe 3 other staff members have to do on their own. Your budget is entirely for the marching activity. You have the undevided attention of the kids, and not because your instructors are "World Class," but because the kids do not have CLASS! They don't show up at 4:00 PM, like they do for my college band, with their eyes glazed over after a day of math, science, biology, chemistry, history, music theory, etc. The kids don't go home and work part-time jobs after school, they don't go out on dates, and they don't join other organiztions or fraternities like they do when in high school or college. No, you (the all-mighty G7 corps) have these kids 24/7. Their focus is on ONE thing only.

So all these advantages makes you "World Class?" I guess funding your operations wasn't part of that definition. Let me know when you figure out how to be world class with your finances.

Edited June 2, 2010 by jwillis35

[byline]

Brilliant post, jwillis35. It should be required reading for the entire G7 . . . but somehow, I don't think it will be.

[madscout96]

Good point. But also consider that many band directors simply do not have the time to add any more to their load, no matter their age or ability. A band director's role is all-encompassing and really difficult. Concert Band, Wind Ensemble, Jazz Band, Marching Band, classes, private lessons, parents meetings, and more.

I guess my point is that it's fine if they want to emulate the corps to a certain extent, but they must be careful. In most situations out there you have 1, sometimes 2, band directors at a school. They might have help with percussion and flags, and maybe if they are lucky they have some help with marching and visual design. What they don't have is a staff of over 30 (like the corps do) to help teach the product. If the drum corps need over 30 staff and 12+ hours per day for 3 months of the year (1 month spring training and 2 months of tour, plus the camps), then how the heck can a band perform something similar with 2 weeks of band camp and 45 to 50 minutes of day when school starts? So the director must be careful when planning a show, especially if they wish to emulate the corps style wihtout going overboard.

My marching band at Mount Union performs a corps-style show for halftime and a Big Ten-style show for pre-game. I keep the corps-style as simple and basic as possible while striving to make it look good and work for the college gameday audience. Many high school bands do not. They go all the way, often operating much like drum corps in the fall.

If you're getting a drum corps-like experience in the fall, why do it in the summer? Only the diehards, who can't get enough of it, will try this. Many of the diehards, who have done a lot of corps, tend to march with G7/top 12 corps. They have moved around and by college age they are ready to march at the highest level. This benefits the G7.

I see very few things that benefit the smaller corps, or the less-competitive corps. With many HS bands operating like corps, there is little reason to march corps. And for the few that will ultimately do it, they often wait unitl they are good enough to be in the big corps, primarily because DCI's focus is on the G7 and has been for some time. They are the headliners and certainly do help to attract people to a show, but because of that the diehards are willing to wait until college (or senior year in HS) until they can make one of those corps. They figure "If I'm going to march, then it will be with one of those great [G7] corps. Why would I march with one of those other corps when my high school experience is just as good or better?"

You're darned is you don't highlight the top corps (due to marketing), and yet, if you do, you're darned because you place focus on the top end only.

I guess I just see things differently these days. Years ago I was all for high school band competitions and corps-style shows, and I still support that to some extent. But the movement in that direction has become reckless and self-centered in many instances. The public schools were supposed to introduce kids to music in a multitude of ways, through lots of various ensembles and musical styles. Beating the heck out of 11.5 minutes of music and drill for an entire fall just to clean it and compete at the highest level is what I call specialization of a very small aspect of music education, and frankly an over-glorification of a medium that was primarily funded by the schools for the purpose of football games.

I know there are students that love the competitive band thing. But there are many more that wonder why they can't just be in a marching band that goes to the football games for the sake of entertainment and nothing more. These are kids that have lives and other interests, yet they find themselves in these band because mom and dad want it, or because they do like to make music and enjoy the challenge, yet deep inside they would like to make some other kind of music and not just MARCHING BAND music. Many want more chamber ensemble, more jazz, more concert band, more musical, more orchestra, and so on. They don't always want to dedicate such a huge chunk of time to beating the crap out of 11.5 minutes of music for a lot fo the summer and most of a fall.

We can save the great American Drum & Bugle Corps, but to do so means understanding the difference between that and high-school/college band.

Drum corps = summer, no school, no classes, the corps have the kids 24/7 and have 20 to 30 staff members ready to fine tune and specialize while teaching 11.5 minutes of music and drill. The summer IS FOR specialization.

High School/College Marching Band = Fall, part of a much bigger picture, kids are in classes all day, homework, other interests, far less rehearsal time, far less staff, and different goals (comprehensive music education mixed with other arts and academics).

If we want to save drum corps, all the corps, then we need to change the focus of the fall. If high school students feel as though they are getting the drum corps experience in the fall, then there is no reason for them to engage in the summer. If they already have to raise large sums of cash for their fall endeavors, then how can they save money for summer? IF they are burned out from competition in the fall, why do summer? If they get exposed to high school competitions where there is a lot of "cheap" imitation going on (trying to be like the best corps but not even coming close), then perhaps their idea of corps is way off. How will they ever know?

Look, I love high school marching band and college marching band. I direct one. I love what music education can give to kids, regardless of what medium that education is taught from (marching, jazz, concert band). I believe a band director has the right to pursue what is best for his/her students. BUT, I also believe that it's a matter of FOCUS and truly understanding the comprehensive nature of one vs. the specialized nature of the other. If I had four weeks of summer training, 30 staff, a budget ONLY dedicated to marching band, and then 12 hours per day for 2 months to work on 11.5 minutes of music (and only ONE show for the entire fall), YEAH...my band would be amazing because we would have taken all the students' time and channled it to ONE thing.

Some of what irritates me (and I apologize for the rant) is that these arrogant G7 corps claim to be "World Class." REALLY???? Last time I looked, you have auditions, acquiring some very fine musicians out of the college ranks who are already good. They were good before you got them. You didn't have to teach these kids to read music, or start them on pitch and notation and rhythm concepts like an elementary- or middle-school teacher does. You use 30+ staff to do what a few band directors and maybe 3 other staff members have to do on their own. Your budget is entirely for the marching activity. You have the undevided attention of the kids, and not because your instructors are "World Class," but because the kids do not have CLASS! They don't show up at 4:00 PM, like they do for my college band, with their eyes glazed over after a day of math, science, biology, chemistry, history, music theory, etc. The kids don't go home and work part-time jobs after school, they don't go out on dates, and they don't join other organiztions or fraternities like they do when in high school or college. No, you (the all-mighty G7 corps) have these kids 24/7. Their focus is on ONE thing only.

So all these advantages makes you "World Class?" I guess funding your operations wasn't part of that definition. Let me know when you figure out how to be world class with your finances.

Awesome post Jonathon. Allow me to add some things:

I agree with just about everything you said, including the bit I bolded about changing the focus for the fall. But that's just not going to happen, because I don't think that many competitive band directors are concerned with saving drum corps at all. Drum corps might inspire their students, yes. It might show their students what is possible. But it also gets in the way of THEIR band program succeeding, if it takes kids away from rehearsals in the summer, and those kids come back from corps with attitudes or egos.

Competing band directors aren't going to want to change their focus for the fall, because they compete weekly for several reasons. Their own egos? Maybe. Impressing parents and administrators? Definately! Music teachers everywhere have worried for decades about getting their programs cut. And music teachers everywhere try to find ways to stay reach the community in order to cause an outrage by everyone if it was even suggested that their programs were cut. "What? You can't cut the band! They do well at competetions! They bring good PR for the school district!" Basically what I'm saying is, band directors want job security, and competing is one way that some go about getting it. And as long as that need exists among band directors, there will be businesses and organizations wanting to cash in on that need. Competitive circuits are a huge part of that of course.

What DCI ought to do is go after the band programs that DON'T compete weekly in the fall. Get kids that barely do any competing at all, kids who aren't even close to being burned out like some BOA band kids might be after their senior year. Kids who learn a new halftime show every week, or at least don't spend 3 hours a day learning the same 10 minutes of music for 4 months. See, that was me before I marched. I came from a high school band that did no competitions my first 2 years, but then did a few in my junior and senior years. I hadn't been burnt out mentally, emotionally, and certainly not financially yet. So when the opportunity came right after high school for me to march drum corps, I saw it as completely different and new, not "more of the same but at a higher level".

[Jeff Ream]

Good point. But also consider that many band directors simply do not have the time to add any more to their load, no matter their age or ability. A band director's role is all-encompassing and really difficult. Concert Band, Wind Ensemble, Jazz Band, Marching Band, classes, private lessons, parents meetings, and more.

I guess my point is that it's fine if they want to emulate the corps to a certain extent, but they must be careful. In most situations out there you have 1, sometimes 2, band directors at a school. They might have help with percussion and flags, and maybe if they are lucky they have some help with marching and visual design. What they don't have is a staff of over 30 (like the corps do) to help teach the product. If the drum corps need over 30 staff and 12+ hours per day for 3 months of the year (1 month spring training and 2 months of tour, plus the camps), then how the heck can a band perform something similar with 2 weeks of band camp and 45 to 50 minutes of day when school starts? So the director must be careful when planning a show, especially if they wish to emulate the corps style wihtout going overboard.

My marching band at Mount Union performs a corps-style show for halftime and a Big Ten-style show for pre-game. I keep the corps-style as simple and basic as possible while striving to make it look good and work for the college gameday audience. Many high school bands do not. They go all the way, often operating much like drum corps in the fall.

If you're getting a drum corps-like experience in the fall, why do it in the summer? Only the diehards, who can't get enough of it, will try this. Many of the diehards, who have done a lot of corps, tend to march with G7/top 12 corps. They have moved around and by college age they are ready to march at the highest level. This benefits the G7.

I see very few things that benefit the smaller corps, or the less-competitive corps. With many HS bands operating like corps, there is little reason to march corps. And for the few that will ultimately do it, they often wait unitl they are good enough to be in the big corps, primarily because DCI's focus is on the G7 and has been for some time. They are the headliners and certainly do help to attract people to a show, but because of that the diehards are willing to wait until college (or senior year in HS) until they can make one of those corps. They figure "If I'm going to march, then it will be with one of those great [G7] corps. Why would I march with one of those other corps when my high school experience is just as good or better?"

You're darned is you don't highlight the top corps (due to marketing), and yet, if you do, you're darned because you place focus on the top end only.

I guess I just see things differently these days. Years ago I was all for high school band competitions and corps-style shows, and I still support that to some extent. But the movement in that direction has become reckless and self-centered in many instances. The public schools were supposed to introduce kids to music in a multitude of ways, through lots of various ensembles and musical styles. Beating the heck out of 11.5 minutes of music and drill for an entire fall just to clean it and compete at the highest level is what I call specialization of a very small aspect of music education, and frankly an over-glorification of a medium that was primarily funded by the schools for the purpose of football games.

I know there are students that love the competitive band thing. But there are many more that wonder why they can't just be in a marching band that goes to the football games for the sake of entertainment and nothing more. These are kids that have lives and other interests, yet they find themselves in these band because mom and dad want it, or because they do like to make music and enjoy the challenge, yet deep inside they would like to make some other kind of music and not just MARCHING BAND music. Many want more chamber ensemble, more jazz, more concert band, more musical, more orchestra, and so on. They don't always want to dedicate such a huge chunk of time to beating the crap out of 11.5 minutes of music for a lot fo the summer and most of a fall.

We can save the great American Drum & Bugle Corps, but to do so means understanding the difference between that and high-school/college band.

Drum corps = summer, no school, no classes, the corps have the kids 24/7 and have 20 to 30 staff members ready to fine tune and specialize while teaching 11.5 minutes of music and drill. The summer IS FOR specialization.

High School/College Marching Band = Fall, part of a much bigger picture, kids are in classes all day, homework, other interests, far less rehearsal time, far less staff, and different goals (comprehensive music education mixed with other arts and academics).

If we want to save drum corps, all the corps, then we need to change the focus of the fall. If high school students feel as though they are getting the drum corps experience in the fall, then there is no reason for them to engage in the summer. If they already have to raise large sums of cash for their fall endeavors, then how can they save money for summer? IF they are burned out from competition in the fall, why do summer? If they get exposed to high school competitions where there is a lot of "cheap" imitation going on (trying to be like the best corps but not even coming close), then perhaps their idea of corps is way off. How will they ever know?

Look, I love high school marching band and college marching band. I direct one. I love what music education can give to kids, regardless of what medium that education is taught from (marching, jazz, concert band). I believe a band director has the right to pursue what is best for his/her students. BUT, I also believe that it's a matter of FOCUS and truly understanding the comprehensive nature of one vs. the specialized nature of the other. If I had four weeks of summer training, 30 staff, a budget ONLY dedicated to marching band, and then 12 hours per day for 2 months to work on 11.5 minutes of music (and only ONE show for the entire fall), YEAH...my band would be amazing because we would have taken all the students' time and channled it to ONE thing.

Some of what irritates me (and I apologize for the rant) is that these arrogant G7 corps claim to be "World Class." REALLY???? Last time I looked, you have auditions, acquiring some very fine musicians out of the college ranks who are already good. They were good before you got them. You didn't have to teach these kids to read music, or start them on pitch and notation and rhythm concepts like an elementary- or middle-school teacher does. You use 30+ staff to do what a few band directors and maybe 3 other staff members have to do on their own. Your budget is entirely for the marching activity. You have the undevided attention of the kids, and not because your instructors are "World Class," but because the kids do not have CLASS! They don't show up at 4:00 PM, like they do for my college band, with their eyes glazed over after a day of math, science, biology, chemistry, history, music theory, etc. The kids don't go home and work part-time jobs after school, they don't go out on dates, and they don't join other organiztions or fraternities like they do when in high school or college. No, you (the all-mighty G7 corps) have these kids 24/7. Their focus is on ONE thing only.

So all these advantages makes you "World Class?" I guess funding your operations wasn't part of that definition. Let me know when you figure out how to be world class with your finances.

a lot of good points, but in teaching for 24 years, I've never had a kid tell me their fall experience made them feel they got their drum corps fill.

and another thing we didnt touch upon....with indoor exploding as it is, i think that coupled with the fall may be causing the burnout.

[jwillis35]

a lot of good points, but in teaching for 24 years, I've never had a kid tell me their fall experience made them feel they got their drum corps fill.

and another thing we didnt touch upon....with indoor exploding as it is, i think that coupled with the fall may be causing the burnout.

Agreed. Your students likely feel they have had a great teacher and a great experience, because I am sure they have. But we both know there are bands that go overboard with this stuff. And you're right, the whole indoor drumline/WGI activity is so popular, that I would imagine kids would be fried by the time summer rolls around.

I understand that it is not the job of band directors (such as you or I) to save DCI, and that is mostly true; but I am worried about DCI's future. The plethora of activities and time-consuming music obligations for high school students is giving them more than enough music and band, and when it comes time to pay $2,000, or more, to march in the summer, they are simply not that interested. But I may be wrong about this.

Of course, non of my diatribes have helped solve the G7 debate or what they, or DCI, should do. I guess my feelings at the moment are more philosophical and driven by the changes I have seen and how that has affected the summer activity.

[Jeff Ream]

Agreed. Your students likely feel they have had a great teacher and a great experience, because I am sure they have. But we both know there are bands that go overboard with this stuff. And you're right, the whole indoor drumline/WGI activity is so popular, that I would imagine kids would be fried by the time summer rolls around.

I understand that it is not the job of band directors (such as you or I) to save DCI, and that is mostly true; but I am worried about DCI's future. The plethora of activities and time-consuming music obligations for high school students is giving them more than enough music and band, and when it comes time to pay $2,000, or more, to march in the summer, they are simply not that interested. But I may be wrong about this.

Of course, non of my diatribes have helped solve the G7 debate or what they, or DCI, should do. I guess my feelings at the moment are more philosophical and driven by the changes I have seen and how that has affected the summer activity.

i do think going after non competitive kids is a great idea. going thru the director there is the issue, as many are against it.

that said...how can DCi reach these kids?

[byline]

i do think going after non competitive kids is a great idea. going thru the director there is the issue, as many are against it.

that said...how can DCi reach these kids?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think corps -- especially the G7 -- will ever go after those kids. The reason? They want performers who are highly competitive, and if possible have already honed those competitive performance skills in another venue, such as marching band. I think that's part of the circular loop to which jwillis35 is referring. High school marching bands have effectively replaced the old feeder units as a source for culling talent. The bulk of the training has already occurred in marching band, and they're simply drawing whatever talent they attract from that training source and taking it to the next level because they have the staffing that can do so. And they want the personality type who is ready, willing and able to compete at that level. So why would they seek a non-competitive person, when they know that personality type may well not be a good fit within a highly competitive system?

I understand the premise because -- theoretically, anyway -- it could reduce the burnout rates. But from a practical standpoint, I just don't see it happening. It's the same thing as employers looking at an applicant's resume to see how much experience they have, and the quality of that experience. Naturally they are going for the individual with the most experience and/or demonstrable success in the skill set that employer is seeking.

[madscout96]

...

and another thing we didnt touch upon....with indoor exploding as it is, i think that coupled with the fall may be causing the burnout.

This could account for burnout of percussion and guard people, but not brass. And corps are always trying harder to fill brass holes this time of year more than any other, right? Not saying your point isn't valid, just saying...

[madscout96]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think corps -- especially the G7 -- will ever go after those kids. The reason? They want performers who are highly competitive, and if possible have already honed those competitive performance skills in another venue, such as marching band. I think that's part of the circular loop to which jwillis35 is referring. High school marching bands have effectively replaced the old feeder units as a source for culling talent. The bulk of the training has already occurred in marching band, and they're simply drawing whatever talent they attract from that training source and taking it to the next level because they have the staffing that can do so. And they want the personality type who is ready, willing and able to compete at that level. So why would they seek a non-competitive person, when they know that personality type may well not be a good fit within a highly competitive system?

I don't think personality type has anything to do with it. You can find a vast array of personalities in any type of band program, regardless of how much competing they've done.

I understand the premise because -- theoretically, anyway -- it could reduce the burnout rates. But from a practical standpoint, I just don't see it happening. It's the same thing as employers looking at an applicant's resume to see how much experience they have, and the quality of that experience. Naturally they are going for the individual with the most experience and/or demonstrable success in the skill set that employer is seeking.

I don't think that it's exactly the same thing. The employer only has the applicant's resume in the first place because that person CHOSE to put in an application: they want the job. Someone who's not interested won't even apply. So if someone who graduated ### lauda from Harvard Law is being sought out by a firm because of their credentials, but they decide that being a lawyer isn't for them (they grew a conscience? lol), but someone who graduated from Saginaw Valley State with a Law degree wants to be a hardcore lawyer, which recent law grad will get more consideration from the firm?

edit: what, you can't say ### (spelled with a "C", a "U", and an "M") lauda?? lol

Edited June 2, 2010 by madscout96