Official DCP G7 Proposal Discussion Thread

[Jeff Ream]

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Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think corps -- especially the G7 -- will ever go after those kids. The reason? They want performers who are highly competitive, and if possible have already honed those competitive performance skills in another venue, such as marching band. I think that's part of the circular loop to which jwillis35 is referring. High school marching bands have effectively replaced the old feeder units as a source for culling talent. The bulk of the training has already occurred in marching band, and they're simply drawing whatever talent they attract from that training source and taking it to the next level because they have the staffing that can do so. And they want the personality type who is ready, willing and able to compete at that level. So why would they seek a non-competitive person, when they know that personality type may well not be a good fit within a highly competitive system?

I understand the premise because -- theoretically, anyway -- it could reduce the burnout rates. But from a practical standpoint, I just don't see it happening. It's the same thing as employers looking at an applicant's resume to see how much experience they have, and the quality of that experience. Naturally they are going for the individual with the most experience and/or demonstrable success in the skill set that employer is seeking.

the non competitive kids are that way not by choice tho. Their director/school makes that decision for them, and there is a ton of talent at some of those schools waiting to burst out. this is a huge place to look at for future members...not burned out, lots of untapped talent

[Jeff Ream]

This could account for burnout of percussion and guard people, but not brass. And corps are always trying harder to fill brass holes this time of year more than any other, right? Not saying your point isn't valid, just saying...

and brass sections are usually twice the size of the percussion and guards...and you'd be surprised how many brass/winds players do indoor percussion and guard

[byline]

I don't think personality type has anything to do with it. You can find a vast array of personalities in any type of band program, regardless of how much competing they've done.

Of course. That's part of my point. DCI corps -- and the G7, in particular -- are not looking for non-competitive types. The band program a person comes is just one factor. You can also tell a lot from a person's competitive record in a number of areas, but of course that's just a piece of the puzzle, and it all boils down to the audition. Just as in a job interview, a drum corps applicant is going to audition and also present his/her performance record to that corps; it's part of the application process. And then the corps is going to make its selection based on its own criteria. But somehow, I just don't think "being a non-competitive person" is going to rank very high on any corps' list.

[byline]

the non competitive kids are that way not by choice tho. Their director/school makes that decision for them, and there is a ton of talent at some of those schools waiting to burst out. this is a huge place to look at for future members...not burned out, lots of untapped talent

I tend to disagree, but maybe it's just because of the programs I was part of. I was a non-competitive person, still am not a competitive person, but actually my band program instilled that capability in me. So while I am generally not a competitive person, I was able to rise up through the ranks thanks to the training I received in high school band, and also the networking opportunities it afforded me which eventually opened the way to marching in a drum corps.

[MikeN]

Just as a reminder -

http://www.dci.org/about/index.cfm

Showcasing the best of the best:

• Each year, more than 8,000 students audition for the fewer than 3,500 positions available in top-tier DCI member corps
  
• More than 5,000 members directly participate annually
  
• 66 percent are male
  
• Average age is 19.4
  
• 72 percent are full-time college students
  
• 59.6 percent of the current college students are pursuing music education degrees, while 65 percent of those that indicated they are high school students intend to major in music education
  

Only 1/4 of the "kids" we're talking about here are HS students.

Mike

[Jeff Ream]

I tend to disagree, but maybe it's just because of the programs I was part of. I was a non-competitive person, still am not a competitive person, but actually my band program instilled that capability in me. So while I am generally not a competitive person, I was able to rise up through the ranks thanks to the training I received in high school band, and also the networking opportunities it afforded me which eventually opened the way to marching in a drum corps.

and how many kids out there may be like you were and have no idea or exposure?

and, as Mike says above, 25% of those marching are HS kids.

how many HS kids try out, get cut and never try again?

[garfield]

Of course, non of my diatribes have helped solve the G7 debate or what they, or DCI, should do. I guess my feelings at the moment are more philosophical and driven by the changes I have seen and how that has affected the summer activity.

This is the REAL problem. Everyone wants to target the band directors as expansion vehicles, but I don't see any evidence of a concerted effort on DCI's part to actually listen to them. Could be Johathan's a lone wolf (or a disgruntled director), but the sum total of the band director's opinions would amount to valuable data for DCI to understand.

Why isn't DCI approaching the problem from the standpoint of BEING the competitive arm of a band director's marching program, instead of forcing/encouraging him to run his own just to feed the corps?

Outstanding post.

[AlexL]

Just as a reminder -

http://www.dci.org/about/index.cfm

Only 1/4 of the "kids" we're talking about here are HS students.

Mike

And within the G7, i bet the number of HS students is even smaller, as the higher in placement you go, the higher the average age tends to be.

Edited June 2, 2010 by AlexL

[garfield]

Awesome post Jonathon. Allow me to add some things:

I agree with just about everything you said, including the bit I bolded about changing the focus for the fall. But that's just not going to happen, because I don't think that many competitive band directors are concerned with saving drum corps at all. Drum corps might inspire their students, yes. It might show their students what is possible. But it also gets in the way of THEIR band program succeeding, if it takes kids away from rehearsals in the summer, and those kids come back from corps with attitudes or egos.

Competing band directors aren't going to want to change their focus for the fall, because they compete weekly for several reasons. Their own egos? Maybe. Impressing parents and administrators? Definately! Music teachers everywhere have worried for decades about getting their programs cut. And music teachers everywhere try to find ways to stay reach the community in order to cause an outrage by everyone if it was even suggested that their programs were cut. "What? You can't cut the band! They do well at competetions! They bring good PR for the school district!" Basically what I'm saying is, band directors want job security, and competing is one way that some go about getting it. And as long as that need exists among band directors, there will be businesses and organizations wanting to cash in on that need. Competitive circuits are a huge part of that of course.

What DCI ought to do is go after the band programs that DON'T compete weekly in the fall. Get kids that barely do any competing at all, kids who aren't even close to being burned out like some BOA band kids might be after their senior year. Kids who learn a new halftime show every week, or at least don't spend 3 hours a day learning the same 10 minutes of music for 4 months. See, that was me before I marched. I came from a high school band that did no competitions my first 2 years, but then did a few in my junior and senior years. I hadn't been burnt out mentally, emotionally, and certainly not financially yet. So when the opportunity came right after high school for me to march drum corps, I saw it as completely different and new, not "more of the same but at a higher level".

Insightful post, with great alternate viewpoints.

I wonder, how would a band director be viewed if he went to his board and said "I want to save you several thousands (tens-of-thousands?) by scrapping my competitive marching band program and, instead, introducing my students to the world of Open Class drum corps."

I don't understand why a band director needs to have a competitive band (and I came from one!) when he has so many hats to wear in teaching a well-rounded musical education?

[byline]

and how many kids out there may be like you were and have no idea or exposure?

and, as Mike says above, 25% of those marching are HS kids.

how many HS kids try out, get cut and never try again?

OK, but if they get cut (I assume you mean by corps) and never try out again, doesn't that point to their non-competitive nature, which in turn might be something corps are not seeking? I am not competitive by nature, yet conversely I am also persistent in the things that I want to do. This stubborn streak is what overcame my lack of competitiveness when it came to drum corps. But, in all honesty, if I were trying to march today, would I be the kind of personality the G7 corps are seeking? I could be wrong, but I have my doubts.

This is a big part of why I have always believed that those who are cut by the upper-tier corps should be auditioning for at least one of the others. Yet by and large, that's not happening, and I have to wonder why. Is it because those who are naturally competitive drift toward the competitive structure of DCI, and so in turn those are the people who are sought, yet there are only so many spots available in the upper-tier corps, and so when those spots are taken, interest wanes amongst all who didn't get a spot? It's a circular logic, but I think that's the case. It was becoming the case even back when I marched in the late '70s.