Please limit the number in the Pit

[Cavie74]

Kind of confused... I don't think they have 12-20 tubas, 18-24 trumpets, 12-16 horns, or 18-24 baritones either... And I don't think you can argue that it's because these instruments take over the roles of other parts of the orchestra or that the environment is drastically different and therefore requires different numbers without forfeiting the right of someone else to use the same argument for the pit...

I was doing a poor job of pointing out the irony of the seriousness people make for music selection ie classical music by comparing drum corps with a symphony orchestra. Since a drum and bugle corps is restricted to brass and percussion you can identify the comparisons of different horns to symphony instruments. For example, you can compare trumpets to violins and violas. This is clearly demonstrated by SCV in the mid 70's Britten's "Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra" You can make comparisons the role of different brass instruments to orchestra instruments. I just can't see it with 8 marimbas 4 xylophones, 2 bells etc. There's nothing to compare it to in an orchestra. I get it when you say we're gonna play Shostakovich with 75 brass but it losses something when you say 75 brass and a collection of marimbas, bells, vibes, and xylophones. Its just silly.

As for CD's vs DVD's, I'll accept the fact that no-one turns the audio off on a DVD. But I'd rather watch Sparticus than listen to Sparticus hence the declaration that drum corps is a visual activity. That hasn't changed since the early days of drum corps. I understand that after WW I drum corps were parade units that would compete against each other at American Legion conventions. They were judged at the reviewing stand and as the years went by, the parades took longer and longer because of the slick drills being performed in front of the reviewing stand. They decided to move the parade to the football field so that more people could view it and not disrupt the parade logistics. Us old timers remember the era of the starting line on the left and the finish line on the right (Side 1 and Side 2 for you dot people). These were vestiges of the parades of those early days. It was the visual package that drove the performance back then. If it was music that mattered, there would be less movement and the guard wouldn't have to be the talented performers we see today. Instead the visual package is more dazzling and sophisticated than ever before. Throw into this the ponderously large pit and it just doesn't work for me.

As for listening to the CD's. I can't. The pit is parked right under the microphones and overpower the performance. It's not that its a big surprise to the recording engineers where the pit will be planted either. Try as they might, you can't salvage the audio for a quality CD. This goes way back to 1975. I loved the '75 Scouts but on my vinyl record, you can hear the bells and xylophone riding the elevator drill up to the front sideline and camping out at the top floor right under Ken Kobold's mics. Its worse now.

[Rifuarian]

I was doing a poor job of pointing out the irony of the seriousness people make for music selection ie classical music by comparing drum corps with a symphony orchestra. Since a drum and bugle corps is restricted to brass and percussion you can identify the comparisons of different horns to symphony instruments. For example, you can compare trumpets to violins and violas. This is clearly demonstrated by SCV in the mid 70's Britten's "Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra" You can make comparisons the role of different brass instruments to orchestra instruments. I just can't see it with 8 marimbas 4 xylophones, 2 bells etc. There's nothing to compare it to in an orchestra. I get it when you say we're gonna play Shostakovich with 75 brass but it losses something when you say 75 brass and a collection of marimbas, bells, vibes, and xylophones. Its just silly.

What's silly is maintaining that there is any direct correlation between drum corps instrumentation and orchestral instrumentation. Trumpets often cover string parts, but I've also heard them take on parts originally given to woodwinds, trumpets (duh), other brass instruments, melodic percussion, piano, voice, guitars, etc. By the same token, keyboards are often cover intricate and difficult string and woodwind parts, and when they do it most usually makes sense within the context of that arrangement.

I agree that pits are often too loud (this coming from a pit player), particularly on recordings. But there's not anything sillier (or more logical) about today's drum corps set-up compared that of the 70s.

[perc2100]

I was listening the some corps from 1979. Besides some good music I wasn't foced to listen to a continual ting ting ting of the amplified pit. The horn line actually carried the melody. It was a beautiful thing to listen too.

At least lower the volume for a better blending please....

Fornfun I went back and listened ton some 79-early 80's shows, and the sound of the pits back then is incredibly obnoxious. Watching old rehearsal videos from back in the day, the technique used to get a "balanced" sound (ie able. To actually hear the pit when the corps is playing above mf) makes me cringe. I know they did the best with what they had, but technique, sound quality, orchestration, etc now is FAR superior to back in the day (especially in the 70's/early 80's).

I know many legacy fans prefer drum corps to sound like it did when they marched, but it's indisputable how much better modern pits are (fwiw I aged out over a decade ago).

[Jeff Ream]

My opinion aligns itself with those who like progress and wider options...like the staffs and admins of the corps. Yours is the 'contrary' one, being against those things.

my opinion is they filled the Proposal with all kinds of hot air, and never delivered ( like most recent proposals)

and if it were just the pit being amped...with no vocals, synths etc, I'd be ok with it, all balance issues not being addressed aside

Edited June 14, 2010 by Jeff Ream

[Phantom&Phitch]

The Chicago Symphony Orchestra has 109 musicians. I don't think they have 10 to 15 percussion keyboards at any given performance. People post here about musicianship but the pit is a cariciture of musicality. There is so much that irritates me about the pit that where do I start?

so you're pro strings/woodwinds and anti large pits. good to know.

[perc2100]

I have been recently wondering (the last year of so) why the pit has become almost the most significant part of the musical ensemble in drum corps. I don't get it.....when did the pit suddenly become so dang important. I walked by a corps that was ready to go on the field one night last season....and past the pit....I could not believe how much stuff they were hauling on to the field. Out of control...to be honest

Part of it has to do with orchestration, addition of colors, etc. to the ensemble. Part of is has to do with designers making sure they hit all of the sub captions on the sheets for maximum points. But I would bet most of it has to do with modern drill designs. If an ensemble is running at 180+ for the majority of the show, you can't expect the horn line to do all of the heavy lifting musically. Design wise there has to be plenty of time for the horns to catch their breath so they can run at 4 to 5's at 210 bpm!

[Blake13]

Times have changed, drum corps as we know it is changing again. We used to have G horns, Mylar drumheads, old Ludwig and Slingerland drums, colorguard with only flag spins, marching pits...now we have Bb horns, Kevlar heads, free floating drums, intense guards, stationary pits with no headgear at all. The activity will always be changing, this is something we're going to have to deal with.

[rayfallon]

There's no correct pit size. It's governed by the economics (not the money - I mean the economy of sounds and sonorities - as well as the economics of resources for buying, moving, playing) like everything else. It's supply and demand. When there's more pit than the overall effect of the show will tolerate, it's too much - that's pretty much the only rules - that and what can you afford to buy and move around the country.

[FHdork]

Grumpy Guy (Cavie74) you wrote a great post from the heart - and you made me smile as you expressed so many of MY frustrations with modern drum corps (and 70s 'plink-a-plink' bell/xylo omnipresence...)...and I believe in the need and opportunities of the pit!

Edited June 14, 2010 by FHdork

[JimF-LowBari]

Fornfun I went back and listened ton some 79-early 80's shows, and the sound of the pits back then is incredibly obnoxious. Watching old rehearsal videos from back in the day, the technique used to get a "balanced" sound (ie able. To actually hear the pit when the corps is playing above mf) makes me cringe. I know they did the best with what they had, but technique, sound quality, orchestration, etc now is FAR superior to back in the day (especially in the 70's/early 80's).

I know many legacy fans prefer drum corps to sound like it did when they marched, but it's indisputable how much better modern pits are (fwiw I aged out over a decade ago).

Does anyone remember when DCI went to the pit? Thought it was early 80s but can't remember. Know DCA allowed the pit by 1984. But.... the early years (at least in DCA) the bells used in the pits were the old marching bells used in the 70s. And most of them just sounded horrible that close to the mics and crowd.

LOL, mid to late 70s DCA kep changing the mic set up mainly because the bells really cut thru. Still remember the B#### latter to DCN complaining about the "drum and tink tink" corps.