Corps loyalty

[C4T]

Are you saying that college teams don't fundraise... have boosters.... work as volunteers.... save up money to support the team.... make donations ? Some college teams can not survive without lots of fundraising tokeep them afloat.

That said, if DCI wants to model themselves after " yoga studios " ( as you said ) for growth of the activity... they could do THAT. But frankly, DCI should begin to replicate some of what the highly succesful enterprises do.... like the colleges do... not " yoga studios ". Besides, DCI gets their talent from the colleges now, and they are trying ( or tried ) to model themsellves after college student athletes. I'd go in that direction. Not the direction of " yoga studios ".

Corps members are music and movement students, and choose to pay for that education and experience from the organization they wish to be a part of. It's a voluntary niche activity. They should have a choice of where they spend their money and time, and shouldn't be penalized for seeking a better experience.

If a corps somehow find a way to give members college scholarships for participating, which would be the only way any kind of loyalty rules should be enforced, then that's great. If drum corps can become as popular as the college sports that actually make a profit, then that's great too. I love drum corps, but there are really only a few of us who do, so neither of those things are likely to ever happen.

Unless corps is integrated/paired with college marching band, and therefore college football, and...

Edited June 16, 2010 by C4T

[Bob984]

Perhaps this lack of loyalty or perceived lack of loyalty is simply a reflection of the times we live in?

It was easy 20 or 30 years ago for a kid's parents to preach about loyalty. They had likely been employed by the same company their entire adult life, lived in the same community that they were raised in, etc.

Today's young people have seen their parents bust their butts only to be laid off, or have seen them have to jump from job to job, just to keep up with simple things like the cost of living. Many people live far from their town of origin, too. To talk about "loyalty" in the beautiful, pure sense is really an abstract concept to many people today, and unfortunately a lot of the lessons they MUST learn today is to look out for themselves because no one else will.

Sad, but true.

Karen

agreed...........the days where a person worked hard at one place and in return was at least rewarded security and respect are gone........I heard a staggering estimate at how many places of employment the average adult is expected to work from age 21 to retirement in just 10 years from now, and it was frightening..........I still believe loyalty is an admirable trait, though.......

GB

[BRASSO]

Corps members are music and movement students, and choose to pay for that education and experience from the organization they wish to be a part of. It's a voluntary niche activity. They should have a choice of where they spend their money and time, and shouldn't be penalized for seeking a better experience.

If a corps somehow find a way to give members college scholarships for participating, which would be the only way any kind of loyalty rules should be enforced, then that's great. If drum corps can become as popular as the college sports that actually make a profit, then that's great too. I love drum corps, but there are really only a few of us who do, so neither of those things are likely to ever happen.

Unless corps is integrated/paired with college marching band, and therefore college football, and...

I fail to see how the granting of scholarships or the absence of scholarships has anything at all to do with a consideration of a transfer rule implementation policy. For example, not all Div.1 college athletes receive athletic scholarships. Some are what are called " walk on " athletes. They may make the roster, but may or may not receive a scholarship later on. But they are STILL subject to the transfer rules of the NCAA once they make the roster. The same is true of some of the women's teams. Because of title 9, women athletes do get athletic scholarships. However, not all do.... some get half scholarships, some get none at all. The Ivy league athletes... men and women.... do not get any athletic scholarships at all. But could ( say) a Harvard Univ. Hockey player transfer right away and play for ( say ) Michigan or Yale or wherever ? No. They are subject to the transfer rules .... and it has nothing at all to financing issues, such as athletic scholarships and whatnot. It is irrelevent under the NCAA guidelines. And as it should be. Some band members pay a full tuition to college. Some pay next to nothing. Some in the college band, if a Veteran, pay nothing. Wealthy families who are employed at a college or University can send their kids to that school... and conceivably to the college band,.. and not pay a dime to the school. But it shouldn't matter anyway regarding a transfer rule policy consideration. As I mentioned above ,I don't see the relevancy to how college is payed for and the connection to a transfer policy implementation consideration.

Edited June 16, 2010 by BRASSO

[Bob984]

First - a person should have the freedom to choose to go where they want regardless of where they've been in the past. You may agree with their choices or not, but it's ultimately their decision (there should not be rules to restrict movement between corps).

Second - I used to put more stock in "corps loyalty", but after awhile I realized that alot of corps are willing to dump a vet for a more talented rookie. So if there's no loyalty from the corps to the members, why should there be loyalty from members to the corps?

I do agree with your second point. In contrast, during my second year, we had some very talented rookies attend an early Spring camp. There was one soprano spot, and 4 trying out. We also had three 3rd year third sopranos who these rookies could blow rings around. However, the director would not cut a vet, and thus only one rookie filled the vacant spot; the other three rookies were gone, even though they could easily out-perform the three vets. Loyalty.

I do agree if a member (anywhere) is not treated well, or doesn't feel a part of the "family" by season's end, that is reason to leave.

I did not suggest that a rule should be made. I am simply observing that there has been a significant increase in recent years in the number of members in a contending corps who marched in another finalist....ie jumping ship from a 7-12 corps to be in a 1-6 corps....simply to have a shot at winning........if loyalty existed among these members and they had drive to improve their 7-12 corps, then we might see "David slay Goliath" every once in awhile. We can't force the issue, though......

GB

[C4T]

I fail to see how the granting of scholarships or the absence of scholarships has anything at all to do with a consideration of a transfer rule implementation policy. For example, not all Div.1 college athletes receive athletic scholarships. Some are what are called " walk on " athletes. They may make the roster, but may or may not receive a scholarship later on. But they are STILL subject to the transfer rules of the NCAA once they make the roster. The same is true of some of the women's teams. Because of title 9, women athletes do get athletic scholarships. However, not all do.... some get half scholarships, some get none at all. The Ivy league athletes... men and women.... do not get any athletic scholarships at all. But could ( say) a Harvard Univ. Hockey player transfer right away and play for ( say ) Michigan or Yale or wherever ? No. They are subject to the transfer rules .... and it has nothing at all to financing issues, such as athletic scholarships and whatnot. It is irrelevent under the NCAA guidelines. And as it should be. Some band members pay a full tuition to college. Some pay next to nothing. Some, if a VET, pay nothing. But it shouldn't matter anyway regarding a transfer rule policy consideration. As I mentioned above I don't see the relevancy to how college is payed for and a transfer policy implementation consideration.

And I fail to see why drum corps should be run like a scholastic sports program. Why is NCAA being used as the ideal here?

My point is that members should have a choice of where they march. Whatever their reasons are. Regardless of similarities or differences from whatever organization or business you want to compare it to. Some may frown on someone going to a different corps "just to win," but do we seriously need to push for rules and regulations to police that kind of thing for a voluntary niche activity? Making it harder for someone to march where they want to march will just turn those people off of the activity. There are so many people I know, including myself, who probably would have just dropped off the face of the activity if loyalty rules like this were in place.

[cascade13]

So I just stumbled upon this topic today, and I totally think corps loyality is seriously lacking. This is my first year marching with the Cascades, and I honestly can't think of marching anywhere else. People give me crap, saying "They suck. They're the wrst corp" and it really pains me, but I havent even left for tour and the corps is pretty much a part of my family now. If talented people stayed with the same corps, there would be a lot of talented corps out there.

[Lance]

So I just stumbled upon this topic today, and I totally think corps loyality is seriously lacking. This is my first year marching with the Cascades, and I honestly can't think of marching anywhere else. People give me crap, saying "They suck. They're the wrst corp" and it really pains me, but I havent even left for tour and the corps is pretty much a part of my family now. If talented people stayed with the same corps, there would be a lot of talented corps out there.

It's nice that you like your corps and you should be proud. I'm rooting for the Cascades all the way this year!

But what business is it of yours where anybody else chooses to march?

[dbc03]

This is my first year marching with the Cascades, and I honestly can't think of marching anywhere else.

Good for you.

Other people in the corps will feel differently.

You and those other people are both right.

You may even find that you are one of those other people someday. I don't think that you can really know something like that until you actually spend a summer on the road.

[BRASSO]

And I fail to see why drum corps should be run like a scholastic sports program. Why is NCAA being used as the ideal here?

My point is that members should have a choice of where they march. Whatever their reasons are. Regardless of similarities or differences from whatever organization or business you want to compare it to. Some may frown on someone going to a different corps "just to win," but do we seriously need to push for rules and regulations to police that kind of thing for a voluntary niche activity? Making it harder for someone to march where they want to march will just turn those people off of the activity. There are so many people I know, including myself, who probably would have just dropped off the face of the activity if loyalty rules like this were in place.

Well, for one, I havn't seen DCI market themselves as " the Marching Major Yoga Studios of Music ".

Look, DCI has used all SORTS of tie ins to college sports. DCI did a segment on their televised telecast a few years back comparing the heart rate on a typical Corps bass drummer in a 11 minute Drum Corps routine to a typical heart rate of an athlete in athletic competition. They didn't compare his heart rate to a guy or girl practicing Yoga for 11 minutes. And DCI didn't select the Health and Nutrition Network to broadcast their competition. They went to ESPN. And DCI has used all sorts of common athletic competition phrases that were used by Rondo and DeLuca in their commentary. It's certainly not a revelation to most here of the similarities between college athletes in sports competition and DCI competitors in Corps.

You'd think that Drum Corps transfers rules are something not used in Drum Corps before. But it's been used before. . And it was used successfully. And nobody felt deprived... and few marchers " dropped off the face of the activity ". It never happened. Quite the contrary. It led to more stabilty in the Corps themselves. More loyalty. Fewer Corps folding. More, not less marchers. Marchers could still get to a Corps they wanted. Nobody was burned at the stake for leaving and going to another Corps. But transfer approvals were not automatic either, and Corps tended to have most marchers stay with their Corps. Corps became better as a result. And more of them too. The transfer policies implemented worked. We don't have to reinvent the wheel here... or guess that it would not be workable, or some other excuse. It would work. It's just not been tried recently, that's all. And that's easy to figure out why too. Why in heavens name would ( say ) the G-7 Corps, with all their influence in DCI, want to implement a policy that would benefit the other Corps at their expense, by making their off season talent pool less for them in any way ? Not going to happen. So we are where we are.... with little movement of Corps with a legitimate chance of a title. Who needs a Butler basketball team from out of nowhere for excitement for a possible first place shot, when we can have the DCI Blue Devils ( or some such ) year... after year... after year.... after year...?

Edited June 16, 2010 by BRASSO

[Bob984]

Because I wanna still be involved and this is the one thing I can still do with the drum corps activity anymore. --Recruit-- My time commitment is not where I can go for an entire summer and teach, but I can still help guide young people to the activity. "The Activity," is what I teach, I have seeked out and sent students to the Glassmen, BK, Cavies, Madison, Crossmen and Revolution over the years and I do so with an equal heart. It doesn't matter to me where a kid marches as long as he or she fits where they're gonna march and is treated well. Most of the students I have recruited over the years have stayed put and showed loyalty to the corps they tried for. My issue is that I have a distinct problem when "Big Boy Corps A," has their staff nudge a top member of another corps with the notion of "why are are you with your corps, come to "Big Boy Corps A!!" It is done? Yep, how do I know? I happened to me and many of my friends marching and it's happened to and in front of my ex-students. The allure of winning is always going to be there and I don't mind seeing a student live out their dream, but should it come at the expense of another fine corps? We're not talking the worst corps in DCI that are being raided, it's those that are good enough for the contenders to take notice in their quality and take advantage of. I have little problem with a a student having a dream to march in Phantom or BD, SC, Cadets etc.... But we would all agree that the percentage of players in America that simply walk into those audition rooms and makes those fine groups is very miniscual. What this has also created in addition to the false hope of a player that's not ready is the all or none attitude. I've seen young people turn sour on the activity when they aren't given the time of day at the corps auditions they went to. I try with everything in my heart to explain the activity and support the idea that each and every corps can be special if their staff and membership work together and stay together and I will always support this. I guess what I am saying it's not where the student marches, it's whether or not they give the corps they march with a chance.

Wes P

Bravo.............In 2000, I briefly returned on staff to the corps I marched with many years ago(a finalist)...I was not the caption head.....I watched WITH HORROR as this young caption head cut at least four rookie snares who had the potential/talent to do it without a problem, but they "weren't experienced". He cut them. I actually asked why, and he said that he "didn't have time" to make them good. I murmered, "it's called teaching", and I think he overheard me, and was insulted. I didn't stay....couldn't work with the guy. If you think I am kidding about the quality, one of the cut rookies filled a snare spot at Bluecoats, who had quite a good line that year. In May, this guy was sitting with 5 snares and looking everywhere in the world to find 3. The line also had the lowest placing drumline in the corps' history, even though the corps still made finals. At least he was "let go" (putting it nicely) after the season ended.

Corps should give all auditionees a shot, and should treat all with dignity and respect, whether they can backstick a roll or can't hold the sticks correctly......and there is a place in this activity for any kid who wishes to march.

You are so right about the out and out "stealing" of members. I was also involved a few seasons with a "class A" corps with a fairly good drumline (won the A title in perc. ). One particular year, the snareline went from 9 to 7 overnight IN MAY, because the "supercorps" an hour away needed 2 snares, and came down and openly recruited them from this A corps, literally meeting with them in the parking lot after a rehearsal. Although we were mad at the 2 "defectors", we were far angrier at the percussion instructor who "stold them".

I don't think that corps who are 7-12 should be "feeder units" for the top 6, yet the substantial increase in the number of kids going from a 7-12 corps to a 1-6 corps is evident. I do agree with you that kids who try out and do not make a unit, and then walk away and never ever march ANYWHERE, are only short-changing themselves in the long run. It is also bad when a kid walks away from being cut at a major audition camp with a bad taste in their mouth, because it wasn't a cordial experience.

GB