Corps loyalty

[corpsband]

It's vaporous to compare that to drum corps, where kids go out and spend a few thousand dollars to participate in an activity and also give up the time to make several thousand dollars working, even at minimum wage.

Quoted for use of vaporous! Reminds of The Mist (Academy 2008):

[dbc03]

What has this got to do with a transfer rule ? I don't see the relationship. Whether a player in college or a marcher in a Corps can easily transfer or not, doesn't seem connected at all to who foots the bill for the player or the marcher. Some marchers don't pay a dime to march ( they are sponsored ) Some marchers get college credit for marching. Some don't. So the financing is irrelevent, imo to the ease ( or difficulty ) of transferring between Corps, or college teams. What is different is that the NCAA has rules in place on transferring... you have to sit out a year. In DCI the top Corps take the best talent transfers out there each and every year... and stay at or near the top, year in and year out. ( and the G-7 proposal atttempts to codify that and lock out the others even more )

So what you are really saying is that you support a rule that makes it even less likely that someone will march a lower corps after getting cut from their dream corps.

Gotcha.

[Room_101]

So basically since you don't have absolute control over whether or not you win you shouldn't bother trying to win and just be happy coming in 10th place every year.

Personally I don' t have a problem with a "whatever it takes to win" mentality because what it takes to win is 150 people who are willing and able to work ridiculously hard every single day and a staff that is capable of helping those people reach their potential by providing the instruction necessary to reach that level and a show that has the potential to be the best in the world. I didn't want to march with people who aren't signed on for that. I'd rather be surrounded by other people with a strong drive to win than people who don't because those people are going to do "whatever it takes to win".

Now at the end of the day if you have all that and you still don't win, that's life. The final scores at finals don't make or break a season. I had years where I went into the season with the hopes of winning it all and come up short, and it was fine because I knew that we did everything we could to win and it just wasn't in the cards.

There is a huge difference between wanting to win and only wanting to win and a lot of posters on DCP don't seem to understand the difference.

Actually, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'll say it a different way, in the hopes that it will be more clear.

I prefer "whatever it takes to be the best I can be" over "whatever it takes to win."

My priority is personal achievement and greatness. The other is "beating others."

[BRASSO]

And exactly what does NCAA basketball have to do with drum corps?

transfers.

Basketball teams ( Duke ) can't just take the best college center in all of college basketball after their current center graduates or leaves for the pros. But there is nothing to prevent ( say ) the Cadets from taking the best upper register trumpet player in all of Drum Corps that is 20 years old with 4 years of experience with (say ) some other World Class Corps, to replace the Cadets current upper register trumpet player that just aged out.

If Pete Carroll at USC could replace his football players that leave after every year, by simply taking the best college players in the country at that position that simply wanted to come there via a transfer, then USC would never fall out of the top 7... EVER....in College football, now would they ? ( sorta like the Cadets in DCI the last 20 years )

Edited June 16, 2010 by BRASSO

[AlexL]

transfers.

Basketball teams ( Duke ) can't just take the best college center in all of college basketball after their current center graduates or leaves for the pros. But there is nothing to prevent ( say ) the Cadets from taking the best upper register trumpet player in all of Drum Corps that is 20 years old with 4 years of experience with (say ) some other World Class Corps, to replace the Cadets current upper register trumpet player that just aged out.

If Pete Carroll at USC could replace his football players that leave after every year, by simply taking the best college players in the country at that position that simply wanted to come there via a transfer, then USC would never fall out of the top 7... EVER....in College football, now would they ? ( sorta like the Cadets in DCI the last 20 years )

Agreed, and you make a very good point.. of course, the schools are giving scholarships and in drum corps the member pays the school... but stil.

[2000Cadet]

transfers.

Basketball teams ( Duke ) can't just take the best college center in all of college basketball after their current center graduates or leaves for the pros. But there is nothing to prevent ( say ) the Cadets from taking the best upper register trumpet player in all of Drum Corps that is 20 years old with 4 years of experience with (say ) some other World Class Corps, to replace the Cadets current upper register trumpet player that just aged out.

If Pete Carroll at USC could replace his football players that leave after every year, by simply taking the best college players in the country at that position that simply wanted to come there via a transfer, then USC would never fall out of the top 7... EVER....in College football, now would they ? ( sorta like the Cadets in DCI the last 20 years )

I'm seeing the correlation, but what I don't understand is why there is such a big deal about where a person chooses to march. In order to understand why a person chooses to go somewhere else instead of staying where he/she is, you would have to ask that person. Many people have reasons for making the choices they did. It is unfair to assume that people choose to go to another corps simply because there is a chance they may receive a ring. Someone said it before, and I'll say it again. It is also part of the staff's job to provide an enviroment where a person would want to stay in that corps. This is not to say the staff is totally responsible for the reason a person chose to march somewhere else, but it can be a factor.

[corpsband]

Why is it the upper corps prefer marchers who have marched elsewhere?

I don't think it's because of the training and education that receive at the lower corps (which is kind of what's been suggested here). Instead they want a member who they know can handle the challenges of surviving a season. Its a really bad investment to take a very talented kid in the winter if they crash and burn in spring training or on tour. Taking kids who have experience is simply the best way to ensure that all the training you invest in a performer during the winter and spring will actually pay off in the summer.

So I think this suggestion that somehow "the best talent" is always moving from lower to upper corps is not entirely true. IMHO what allows those "upper" corps to remain "upper" is more about their admin, design, and teaching than it is about the talent. Sure there's a certain baseline of ability required to perform a show, but if one were to take the kids from a 7-12 corps and plop them into a 1-6 corps and you might be surprised at what they can accomplish.

[Dir_en_X]

I'm seeing the correlation, but what I don't understand is why there is such a big deal about where a person chooses to march. In order to understand why a person chooses to go somewhere else instead of staying where he/she is, you would have to ask that person. Many people have reasons for making the choices they did. It is unfair to assume that people choose to go to another corps simply because there is a chance they may receive a ring. Someone said it before, and I'll say it again. It is also part of the staff's job to provide an enviroment where a person would want to stay in that corps. This is not to say the staff is totally responsible for the reason a person chose to march somewhere else, but it can be a factor.

Co-sign. Suppose Johnny Hornblower marches a summer with Corps X. Loves the activity, but maybe the atmosphere of the corps isn't for him. Could be the personality of the corps, method of teaching, issues with other members, etc. Whatever the reason, if Johnny Hornblower (or Suzy Spinner or Teddy Drummer) isn't happy with the corps they march with, who is to say they should stay? If they move to Corps Y or Z and love it there, odds are they will march there again.

[BRASSO]

So what you are really saying is that you support a rule that makes it even less likely that someone will march a lower corps after getting cut from their dream corps.

Gotcha.

No, that is not what I'm saying at all. As a matter of fact, I don't accept your conclusion that a transfer rule would result in such an outcome like this in most cases. First of all, the reason why we have so liitle change at the top the last 20 years, where the " dream Corps " are the same, is because of the absence of a transfer rule to begin with. Secondly, a transfer rule would allow Corps to retain more of their trained talent.. and thus someday increase the liklihood of becoming that " dream Corps " themselves

Last year in the NCAA Mens Basketball Tournament, 64 teams qualified. One of the teams that made to the Final game was Butler. They lost to Duke in a close game, but they finished 2nd.. as runner up. This was exciting and drew fans to watch.. it would be like ( for example ) Teal Sound finishing in 2nd place in DCI this year. The reason a Butler can make it to the Final Four on occasion is because the NCAA does not allow the willy nilly ease of transfer that DCI allows.

If Teal Sound does well this year, my hunch is that they have no chance of finishing in the top 4 this year. Worse, my hunch is that after this year, no matter how well they may have done in terms of their expectations for this year, that they wil lose some of their best talent to Corps in the top. Why is this an issue ? It's an issue, because so few Corps move in and out of the top 4 with any degree of regularity the last 20 years.. After awhile, fans get bored without the element of surprise. The reason 2008 was so electrifying for so many people is because the Semi's winner did not win the Title the next nite. That happens so rarely, that it was momentarily invigorating.

Then again, it's certainly possible that we could continue to do things the same way for the next 20 years. This way we could perpetuate the same Corps at the top.. but hope for different results, despite doing the same things over and over again, but expecting different results . My choice would be to institute SOME degree of a transfer rule.... perhaps financial renumeration, ie a " finders fee " to the Corps that took in a marcher, trained him or her for a few years, only to lose the marcher to the same old, same old 4-5 Corps. The G-7 Corps want to cut the revenue streams to those below. No problem. Let the self proclaimed " TOP ACTS "then have to fork over some dough to those Corps that they depleted of their talent to enrich themselves and allowed themselves to be in a position now to ask for even MORE from these other Corps. A modified transfer rule and / or a " finders fee " would go along way in invigorating the activity and provide a more realistic chance of movement into the top echelon... and possibly provide fewer deaths to other Corps... and in turn, increase the fan base, and reinvigorate the competition at the top more.

Edited June 16, 2010 by BRASSO

[wesleyrp]

Why is it anybody's business where a kid chooses to march?

Goodness.

Because I wanna still be involved and this is the one thing I can still do with the drum corps activity anymore. --Recruit-- My time commitment is not where I can go for an entire summer and teach, but I can still help guide young people to the activity. "The Activity," is what I teach, I have seeked out and sent students to the Glassmen, BK, Cavies, Madison, Crossmen and Revolution over the years and I do so with an equal heart. It doesn't matter to me where a kid marches as long as he or she fits where they're gonna march and is treated well. Most of the students I have recruited over the years have stayed put and showed loyalty to the corps they tried for. My issue is that I have a distinct problem when "Big Boy Corps A," has their staff nudge a top member of another corps with the notion of "why are are you with your corps, come to "Big Boy Corps A!!" It is done? Yep, how do I know? I happened to me and many of my friends marching and it's happened to and in front of my ex-students. The allure of winning is always going to be there and I don't mind seeing a student live out their dream, but should it come at the expense of another fine corps? We're not talking the worst corps in DCI that are being raided, it's those that are good enough for the contenders to take notice in their quality and take advantage of. I have little problem with a a student having a dream to march in Phantom or BD, SC, Cadets etc.... But we would all agree that the percentage of players in America that simply walk into those audition rooms and makes those fine groups is very miniscual. What this has also created in addition to the false hope of a player that's not ready is the all or none attitude. I've seen young people turn sour on the activity when they aren't given the time of day at the corps auditions they went to. I try with everything in my heart to explain the activity and support the idea that each and every corps can be special if their staff and membership work together and stay together and I will always support this. I guess what I am saying it's not where the student marches, it's whether or not they give the corps they march with a chance.

Wes P