The difference between a clean show and an entertaining show

[DCISuperfan]

I guess what my question is, is there a difference between these two types of shows? On the one hand the judges will always favor a show that is very well executed and very clean. On the other hand are the shows that are just completely enjoyable to watch, very difficult to get 100% clean due to the difficult nature of them, and tough to compete with. I believe that there are times where a show can be both very clean and very fun to watch, but it seems that in marching music (not just drum corps) that the staff has to sit down and ask, Do we want to make a show that we will be able to get perfect by the end of the season, or do we want to make a show that will push the limits of the activity? Should corps that focus just on pumping out super squeaky clean shows be rewarded with a title when they are not pushing the limits of the activity? Should a show that is very easy, very clean, and somewhat exciting win? Im not talking about BD here, just any shows in general.

I have marched in the Davis High Marching Band here in Utah for 3 years, and every year we would take the "very difficult to get clean, but very exciting" approach to the activity. We would never win against our competitors because even though our show was exciting, and often an audience favorite, it just was simply not as clean or easy as the bands that took first. Should there there be (or perhaps make them more critical in the judging process) spots on judging sheets in which crowd appeal and overall difficulty of the show factor in?

What do you guys think?

[garfield]

I guess what my question is, is there a difference between these two types of shows? On the one hand the judges will always favor a show that is very well executed and very clean. On the other hand are the shows that are just completely enjoyable to watch, very difficult to get 100% clean due to the difficult nature of them, and tough to compete with. I believe that there are times where a show can be both very clean and very fun to watch, but it seems that in marching music (not just drum corps) that the staff has to sit down and ask, Do we want to make a show that we will be able to get perfect by the end of the season, or do we want to make a show that will push the limits of the activity? Should corps that focus just on pumping out super squeaky clean shows be rewarded with a title when they are not pushing the limits of the activity? Should a show that is very easy, very clean, and somewhat exciting win? Im not talking about BD here, just any shows in general.

I have marched in the Davis High Marching Band here in Utah for 3 years, and every year we would take the "very difficult to get clean, but very exciting" approach to the activity. We would never win against our competitors because even though our show was exciting, and often an audience favorite, it just was simply not as clean or easy as the bands that took first. Should there there be (or perhaps make them more critical in the judging process) spots on judging sheets in which crowd appeal and overall difficulty of the show factor in?

What do you guys think?

I think you'll get waffles, pancakes, and a western omelet with a side of bacon.

Actually, you've raised questions that are a hot topic here and have been discussed ad-nauseum. Not your fault; jump in and go search DCP a few times.

In particular, search any thread that promises not to bash BD, and you'll get exactly the "discussion" you're looking for.

[ouooga]

It's the nature of the activity. The members perform the show. The staff designs the show. The championship goes to the members, not the staff. As a result, the judging must place an emphasis on how well they are performing the show, and less on what the actual show is.

[Abbevillekid26]

Cavies 2004 was by no means easy and not very clean either. I do not speak for "the fans" but I found it very entertaining and I'm glad it won. I know many people disagree over who should have won but I think it's a good example that not all championship shows have to be easier or completely clean.

[ajwdad]

It's the nature of the activity. The members perform the show. The staff designs the show. The championship goes to the members, not the staff. As a result, the judging must place an emphasis on how well they are performing the show, and less on what the actual show is.

Best response on this that I have seen in a very long time. Well written!

[ajwdad]

I guess what my question is, is there a difference between these two types of shows? On the one hand the judges will always favor a show that is very well executed and very clean. On the other hand are the shows that are just completely enjoyable to watch, very difficult to get 100% clean due to the difficult nature of them, and tough to compete with. I believe that there are times where a show can be both very clean and very fun to watch, but it seems that in marching music (not just drum corps) that the staff has to sit down and ask, Do we want to make a show that we will be able to get perfect by the end of the season, or do we want to make a show that will push the limits of the activity? Should corps that focus just on pumping out super squeaky clean shows be rewarded with a title when they are not pushing the limits of the activity? Should a show that is very easy, very clean, and somewhat exciting win? Im not talking about BD here, just any shows in general.

I have marched in the Davis High Marching Band here in Utah for 3 years, and every year we would take the "very difficult to get clean, but very exciting" approach to the activity. We would never win against our competitors because even though our show was exciting, and often an audience favorite, it just was simply not as clean or easy as the bands that took first. Should there there be (or perhaps make them more critical in the judging process) spots on judging sheets in which crowd appeal and overall difficulty of the show factor in?

What do you guys think?

I think that entertaining is very very subjective. For instance, I don't find Michael Jackson's music entertaining. but about 1 billion people disagree with me. As for pushing the activity, Cadet and BD tend to do that a lot. PR did it in '08. even killed their DM in the show. Some will confuse difficulty with a lack of ability to execute, others will confuse clean with lack of demand. Both will have some merit at first glance. But, clean is pretty hard and doing it at 236 for extended periods of time, while doing 1 legged deep knee bends followed with a lot of up/down motion is pretty hard also.

I guess that in general, I reject the idea that entertaining means difficult and clean means easy. One of the most entertaining show that I have seen in 3 weeks was done by VK. Not clean at all, and not very difficult, but very entertaining.

[76strad]

At my high school I believe it is possible to get both, as with high school you'll never have Drum Corps good in both marching and music. Anyways our ballad was Cannon and people (a football crowd) got up and cheered and litterally cried from the hornline & color guards performance. I don't believe it is proper for me to post my high schools name/name of our band on here, but if you would like to see a video PM me and ill send ya a link. Anyways on another note, when you do high school band you're super proud of it no matter what, but then when you spend 6 months watching Cavalier drill and listening to Crowns hornline then what may be a superb performance for high school looks/sounds like ####. My mom nearly washed my mouth out with soap for denouncing spots in the video

[Hook'emCavies]

Reading this reminded me of my 10th grade show... Honestly that show visually wasn't very clean (except the ballad visually CLEAN! but not the rest) And the area I come from in Texas is very harsh competing wise. I went to Klein Forest, and some people have us at a high level of performance year round... but recently at my high school marching has been a major problem. Thus my 9th grade year was awful marching wise... (we got last place at every show) then when the next year came around we worked our BUTTS off!! It was a difficult show to march and when we went to UIL Area we made finals. It was the first time in along time that Klein Forest made finals at Area. We may not have been clean visually but playing wise we were ranked in the top 5. That being said I prefer entertaining shows more than anything else... because even when you are marching (or watching) you want to feel like you just seen the most amazing thing in the world! (plus you want your moneys worth.) Judging wise I think they should take for granted the fan favorite but I hate to say it... I don't think judges should judge groups by "fan favorites". Yeah the show I marched in was popular at the shows but we placed exactly where we were suppose to be at. Thus is always why we have the Countdown and vote in our favorite shows... oh wait... DCI took that away from us last year... oh well but i'm sure you get my point...

[DCISuperfan]

So I am getting the consensus here that shows need to be judged on how it is presented rather than what is presented. I do not totally agree here though. I do not think an easy show that is very clean should necessarily win. The shows that are very difficult and yet still clean, but not as much, need to be represented in some fashion. Whether this be a "difficulty" spot on the judging sheets or some other method, I think that difficulty needs to factor in somewhere. If this was to be implemented, I think that we would have shows that are even more competitive. Instead of the "lets make this very clean/lets make this push the activity" split there would be more of "lets see how far we can take this activity, because thats what is required to win". But I might just be up in the night as well

[Eric M. Buckman]

You asked...and you'll get it...refer to DCI 1988 ad nauseum...LOL...Madison oustanding...entertaining...suspensefull, and stole the show, maybe it was the best on the field that year...but definately not the cleanest show of the top 3...