judges

[Ed from Kansas]

Occasionally there is favoritism, but in an ideal world there wouldn't be.

While favoritism may account for part of a drop, most of it probably has to do with inconsistency, or competing against different corps. Sometimes at shows, a section of the corps may not be feeling as hot, or someone could suffer an injury. For instance, if one person in the snareline wasn't doing so well, it would affect the whole line as well as the music ensemble at large. Things tend to ripple.

If corps x has been competing against corps y all summer and then all of a sudden corps z is added to the competition, often times judges are forced to lower scores to leave room. It's numbers management. Remember that it isn't the overall number that matters, its the spread.

Why not just award a corps what they earn on the field and to #### with the spread. If two corps score equally, they should receive the same score. Numbers management is nothing but bull####.

[AlexL]

Why not just award a corps what they earn on the field and to #### with the spread. If two corps score equally, they should receive the same score. Numbers management is nothing but bull####.

Agreed.

[littlebirdy]

Why not just award a corps what they earn on the field and to #### with the spread. If two corps score equally, they should receive the same score. Numbers management is nothing but bull####.

They manage numbers because they can't just look at a show and say "95.925". If there was a system of just giving a score, that would increase favoritism. If a judge thought it was perfect, they would give a 20. As it is right now they say, "well, the brass is really good because of x, y, and z, but it is POSSIBLE for a corps to be better, so I'll only give a 19.8". If no one is better, than no one is better. If the next corps is equal, than they give the same score.

I think what you want is the tic system to come back.

Edited July 25, 2010 by littlebirdy

[ShortAndFast]

Someone said it well on another thread, but every single corps has judges that they do well with, and judges they do poorly with. It doesn't have to be bias or favoritism - every judge is a human being, and they're going to have some styles and some designs that they respond better to. But suffice to say, the staff at every single corps wishes they could pick the panel at big shows.

But if you think Judge A is always dumping your corps, you're forgetting about Judge B who loves everything your guys are doing. Who can say which judge is calling it correctly?

Edited July 25, 2010 by ShortAndFast

[Lance]

Heck yea there is favoritism. Just look at the scores. That's simple. There's favoritism from: Name recognition, and historically good corps. Why you think since 2003 there's only been 4 champions?

I personally wish it wasn't this way, but of course it's not gonna change. It's sad that they don't really care about the lower corps...so they just give them a score, and say who cares who gets the 10th-12th spot.

There's been as much or more diversity and variations in placements for the top 4 over the past decade than at any other time since 1972-1981, when there were a lot more corps.

Between 1980-1989, there were 4 different champions.

Between 1990-1999, there were 5 different champions (1999 tie).

Between 2000-2009, there were 4 different champions.

Between 1972-1979, there were 4 different champions.

Crown is doing something a bit like Star with how it has broken into the top 6, and looks to stay there for awhile. Like Star, they've gotten there because they deserve it. They didn't deserve it before. Neither do all of the corps who haven't broken into the top consistently.

and the corps who aren't there are not in a spot where judges "just give them a score." They earned their scores and are probably proud of them, but even more proud of what they accomplished over the tour that has nothing to do with a number.

[theCHEZman]

EFFECT judges are given too much lead way for favoritism. There should be certain criteria that they adhere to and it should be followed. At this point in the

season with the top 5 corps performing at very high levels already, there shouldn't be such inconsistency from the GE judges. A low ball score which is inconsistent should be flagged and that judge should be questioned why he/she scored a specific corps that way. Not that it changes the score for that show but it may make them

keep there bias out of the scoring process. (alot of these people taught, marched etc so obviously there can be some contamination there>). We all know some judges

that just consistently low score certain corps irregardless of the season).

[megadrive]

There will never be a perfectly designed judging system.

Anyone who thinks there will be should get over it.

[coachsig]

The juges topic and number of champions, but many of you think or believe that the drum corp activity is considered a sport. In theory all of who have been part of, marched, taught or are just now a fan; know that this is all skewed in so many ways. As for the judges and showing favortism, we all know that asnwer. Every judge fromm my point of view possesses one type of the Consequentialist Moral Theroy. JUdges, frrom the Hedonistic point of view, they do whatever brings them the greatest amount of happiness. From the Utilitarianistic point of view, which states doing what would bring the greatest amount of happiness to the greatest amount of people, this the judges do not possess. For example, Blue Devils(DCI) and Buccaneers (DCA); we all know that the Blue Devils are more than likely going to win DCI the majority of the time. If Vegas could put odds on the Blue Devils they would probably be rated as even money. The judges always reward them for anything and everything, no matter what. As for the Buccaneers in DCA, if and when they win this year it will be 6 years in a row. Thus, by doing that; you are now starting to loose your audience in attending your shows. This then would have a direct realtionship to the financial aspects of this activity which is highly skewed in favor of certain organizations. By watching the same organization win year in and year out, you start to lose the viability of the product to your audience. They all know who is more than lilkely going to win before the season starts.

If we were to relate the drum corps activity to sports and winning championships, then drum corps will never be classified as a sport becuase there is NO parity, change or the desire to allow another organization to win the championship is not allowed. If we were to correlate championships won in the world of sports within the professional levels and compare that to drum corps this is what the results would indicate:

Number of organizational Champions since 1972

DCI (Kingsman, SCV, Madison, Blue Devils, Cadets, Star of Indiana, Phantom, Cavaliers) 8 compared to 1000's of organizations who try thats about 1%. Statistically very low percentage versus the obvious of who we know who is going to win.

DCA (Cabs, Buccs, Sunrisers, Skyliners, Hurrcs, Brigs, Empire, Bushwackers, Westshoreman) 9 compared to not as many DCI organizations who compete. The percentage of Champions to number organizations is probably higher than the 1% at DCI.

NFL (Dallas, Miami, Pittsburgh, Oakland, San Fran, Washington, Chicago, NY Giants, Denver, St Louis Rams, Baltimore Ravens, New England, Tampa Bay, Indianapolis, New Orleans and Green Bay) 16 out of 32 organizations, thats 50% of the orgainations who have won a championship and some have folded or moved to other parts of the country.

NBA (LA Lakers, NY Knicks, Boston, Golden State, Portland, Seattle, Washington, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, Houston, San Antonio and Miami) 13 out of 34 organizations with some defunct.

NHL (Boston, Montreal, Philadelphia, New York Islanders, Edmonton, Calgary, Pittburgh, New York Rangers, New Jersey Devils, Colorado, Detroit, Dallas, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Anaheim and Chicago) 16 out of 32, At least 50%.

MLB (Oakland, Cincinnati, New York Yankees, New York Mets, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Los Angelas Dodgers, St. Louis, Baltimore, Detroit, Kansas City, Minnesota, Toronto, Atlanta, Arizona, Los Angelas Angels, Florida, Boston and Chicago White Sox) 19 out of 34 more than 50%.

Even sports at the professional level possesses more parity than drum corps. Even organizations with the lowest payroll has one championships. It Seems with drum corps those with money and numbers win the championships. Thus no partity or chance for any other organization to win a DCI/DCA title. Thus subjectivity is controlled by the judges and skewed. Even in sports teams have a bad day, dont play well or evenget out played by thier competition. In drum corps, it seems that nothing changes they only want certain organizations to win. Thus planning to lose the audience membership, becuase there is no change in the standings and we always know who is going to win.

In sports or athletics, at any given day, any given time any one can beat anyone by capitolizing on thier mistakes and miscues.

That's why I only go to watch the shows now, scores dont matter when we know who is going to win the title. I think, I am probably speaking for a certain percenatge of the drum corps community, its time to see a change in who wins, not preditcability.

Disclamer: I am not trying to take anything away from the performers and their hard work and dedication on the field and what it takes, I have been there. I am always appreciative of thier efforts and abilities on and off the field.

Edited July 25, 2010 by coachsig

[ContraFart]

SLAM!!!!

[Ed from Kansas]

They manage numbers because they can't just look at a show and say "95.925". If there was a system of just giving a score, that would increase favoritism. If a judge thought it was perfect, they would give a 20. As it is right now they say, "well, the brass is really good because of x, y, and z, but it is POSSIBLE for a corps to be better, so I'll only give a 19.8". If no one is better, than no one is better. If the next corps is equal, than they give the same score.

I think what you want is the tic system to come back.

That's why there are captions. A judge should have no memory when judging a corps. Report what you see, no more, no less. GE is probably the most subjective category but, again, can be more consistent. If it takes bringing the old system back, then so be it.