World Class Motivation

[Jeff Ream]

God forbid someone's precious little snowflake has to put forth some effort and breaks a sweat :)

reminds me of a great Eric Kitchenman story from the 80's a flute player was complaining about being tired. if you know Eric, you can picture this in his voice:

"what's the matter little girl, is your piccolo too heavy? didn't mummy tell you there aren't any shade trees on a football field?"

[Jeff Ream]

Are you a school teacher?

i know many who wish you could go back to swatting kids, because they aren't allowed to hold them accountable for anything.

more and more teachers get out as soon as possible not because of the kids, but because of the parents

[JayM]

I couldn't disagree more. It's this philosophy that has produced a generation of undisciplined deadbeats frankly--people who have no respect for authority and a general disregard for responsibility.

[citation needed]

I have worked with young people for many many years (too many to count) and the reality is that pushups may be necessary. A consequence is something that MUST "hurt." If it doesn't "hurt" then it has no effect.

In cases of insubordination I agree that there needs to be a punishment with "bite", but I don't think that necessarily includes physical punishment.

In drum corps, we're not typically dealing with insubordination; we are dealing with either a failure to perform (which is its own punishment) or a lack of focus. If the lack of focus is persistent and/or pervasive, it is probably due to fatigue (physically or mentally) and may be a sign that it's time for a 5-10 minute break. If the lack of focus is due to some form of selfish behavior (goofing off, etc.) then certainly some form of punishment is in order. In this specific case, what purpose would laps or push-ups serve? If a member of a drum corps isn't cooperating in a rehearsal, simply remove him/her from the rehearsal. It's a simple punishment and it follows logically from the unwanted behavior.

Having said all of that, it's critical that the instructors do this while maintaining their own attitude. A caustic, explosive anger has no part in training.

Agreed.

Re: the OP's identity: I know him, he's a great guy, and most certainly not a recent member of any corps. I also believe his concern is genuine, and certainly not a veiled attempt at character assassination.

[MarimbaManiac]

Again, If a student doesn't have the tools to succeed, the instructor need to be teaching better or choose a different method. However is a student has all the necessary tools, and opportunities, but fails due to giving a half hearted effort, or because they aren't paying attention to directions, punishment is deserved and administered.

Example:

Instruction: Take the 8 count halt, then move for 16, then 20, then halt.

If there are members in the corps, who weren't paying attention, and fail to take the 8 count halt, or fail to go through all the moves and stop at the right place, they need to be running, or doing pushups to remind themselves that they need to listen to and follow directions. Not to mention apologize for wasting the corps time.

If that concept doesn't compute, then maybe you are one of those people who always forgets to take the halt ;)

Edited August 20, 2010 by MarimbaManiac

[wjk1946]

I am sorry I asked my simple question.

I started by simply asking for information regarding how corps operate in today's environment. I was very naive thinking anyone would answer that question. As far as I have seen, only one person from Teal Sound has said this corps does use physical penalties in some cases. Thank you, whoever you are, for being to the point and honest.

I did not plan to mention Crown, but after four pages of people challenging me and quesitoning my morales, I had to defend myself. Giving more details was necessary.

I am now going one step further. My name is Wayne Karge. I marchied in the Cavaliers from 1963 - 1967. I taught the Cavaliers 1968 - 1972. Since 1963, ther have been only two years when I did not persoanally attend a championship. I did not go to DCI in 1979, nor 1980.

I graduated high school in June of 1964 and in October of 1964 I started teaching a color guard and drill team from Arlington Heights, Il, which was one town over from Mount Prospect where I grew up. In 1967, this unit won the first of their many VFW national championships. That same year I won the last of my four marching championships, the VFW and AL championships.

I am not going to mention the name of the docotr, because I don't have his permission to bring him into this fight. I can tell you we spent probably 20 minutes taking about his obervations and concerns in the parking lot at Murfreesboro. He is a Cavalier from 1999 - 2001. He is also a member of the medical group that volunteers time and travels with the Cavaliers. He is commited to preserving the health of corps members. You will have to trust me on this one.

If you want to see my name, look at any DCI yearly program. My wife and I are one of the four asterisks listed in the Friends of DCI, meaning we are founding and continuous members. We along iwth one the other couples, also with an asterisk, donate the money to ensure the winners of I&E competitions get a medal for the effort. For years we pushed DCI to give the winners more than a jacket form S.O.M.E., because we knew jackets are outgrown and disintegrate. S.O.M.E. now only gives a patch to winners because of expense. Finally, after years I wrote a letter telling DCI to give the kids something concrete they can walk of the field wearing, and send me the bill. Our friends joined in a split the cost. In most years, you have seen the four of us on the field presenting the awards to the winners, which is one of our favorite moments of the year. Better yet, we get a lot of personal satisfaction when we see a member proudly wearing the medal since it was our idea to give it to him or her.

Ask any Cavalier who has been initiated who Wayne Karge is and he can tell you. I am one of the 20, or so, names outside of former drum majors and color guard sargeants the the initiates must learn.

Over the last 30 years, or so, I have personally donated close to $150,000 to DCI and other drum corps. In 1993, when DCI was in serious financial straits I was contacted in September by the marketing manager asking if i could help them out. I wrote a check for $10,000 which helped to cover the payroll for the next couple of months. When the Cavaliers made the decision to purchase Bb instruments, the founder, Don Warren, who is a life long friend, called me first for a donation. I landed up paying for almost 20% of the horn line.

If you want to see what I look like, in 1998, the 50th anniversary year of the Cavaliers, the corps had a poster created showing the many uniforms of the corps's history. In the upper right corner, wearing the original green, block, and white uniform you will see me. I am the baritone player shown in the poster.

In 2008 I was the head of the brass caption for the Cavalier Anniversay Corps. I was also the upper voice of the Bully baritone trio in this corps. I played that part because I wrote that part in 1966, when the Cavaliers played Bully.

So, I am not hiding from view. When you challenge that I am a Cavalier, you have no idea how wrong you are. I am one of the legendary Cavaliers that incoming members must learn about, and in many cases interview. When you question my ethics and concerns, you also have no idea how wrong you are. I have put my actions and my wallet on the line many times over the years to keep drum corps alive.

What is most frustrating to me the I simply asked for some information. Not only did I not receive this information, but from the start I was attacked by a bunch of people who are hiding behind the web. These same people accused me of hiding. I never hid, I am not hiding, nor will I hide, but this experience has shown me how uncooperative people can be.

I came here asking for information. What I got was a fight.

Now. if anybody with this history and level of success in drum corps who wants to meet me and have a reasonable discussion, you can look for me in section 240, rows 10 and 11, seats 16 - 20 next year in Indy. I will probably be in row 10 seat 18. Come to see I am real. Yes, I get to pick where I sit each year at the championships so I know my seat location for next year.

I still have a concern for where drum corps is headed. Yes, as I stated, there is a need for running and P.T. for cardio purposes, but beyond that, physical punishment is just a short cut and WRONG. Yes, I meant to yell.

I will share a long story about how to motivate without yelling and without physical abuse.

In 1970 drum corps was a part time, weekend activity. All day rehearsals were rare, but we had one early in 1970. We started at 8:00am and went until 6:00 with some breaks including two hours for lunch. There were no cook trucks back then.

In the last 45 minutes we knew everyone was fried, so we lightend up to do some easier exercises. We felt anything more would be counterproductive.

Back then, the corps marched on unlined fields. You had to dress by sight and feel. Most corps marched elbow to elbow, and you dressed by the feel of the person next to you.

To end the day, we decided to practice company fronts. This consisted of the entire corps. less drummers, lining up elbow to elbow and marching across the field with eyes closed. The challenge was to keep the front straight by feel.

The key to this was the first step. Any hesitation, however small, started a whip effect and the front fell apart instantly.

We told the corps to dress the line, mark time four counts, and step forward.

On about the sixth try, because someone always balked on the first step, I turned to the other instructior and said, "Joe, this is our fault. Our instructions have been incomplete."

I then turned to the guys and apologized to them. I said something along the line, "Guys this is my fault. You have been having difficulty because I have given you bad instructions. To correct this, for those of you who are unsure, forward is this direction", and I pointed in the direction they were to march.

Was this cynical? Yes. Did it make them very angry? Yes. Did they get it right? Yes.

I used group dynamics. I gave those men a common enemy, me. I made them so angry at me that they were going to get it right out of spite. Was that abusive? I don't think so. Was it an insult? Yes, but it was needed to make me the enemy.

This is how you can motivate without abuse. When they finished I apologized to them for the the cheap shot, and they understood.

Two of the most effective ways to get a group to band togehter is to get them to commit to work against a common enemy or work for a common goal. It also helps if the issue involves the survival instinct, but that can be hard to pull into the equation. The more personal commitment you can get from the members of a group to the group, the better resluts you will get from the group as a whole. The individuals will sacrifice for the good of the group.

I started by asking for some information. Virtually nobody has answered my question, but I have surely been attacked for simply asking the question. I have found it necessary to defend myself because I was stupid enough to ask the question. I have had the nerve to tell you who I am, what I have done, and where you can find me in the future. This extremely negative experiance with DCP has proven to me how wise I have been, up until now, to avoid posting. One of the reasons I delayed asking the question was my fear of just this type of response. My fears were unfortuanley rewarded. I also needed to get registered to log onto the site, which took some time.

Since virtually none of you have the decency to answer my original question, I guess I learned what I was afraid I would learn. Very few want to help. Most simply want to rant. I am sorry I bothered any of you. Obviously I am an old, fool who has nothing to offer to drum corps. I wanted ot learn enough to help and all I received from you is a lambasting for my concern.

Okay, I give up. I hope I never hear about abuse, or future injuries, but I have a feeling this is not the last time I see or hear about a serious injury in drum corps.

I feel sorry for the young man from Crown. I feel sorry for one of the drummers who left Crown because of tendonitis, possibly from being pushed too hard during the year. More importantly, I feel sorry for all of the members who believe physical and mental abuse are an acceptable part of the drum corps experience. Finally, I feel sorry for the future students of these same members who will may be abused because of their techers were taught this through drum corps.

I am starting to feel a bit ashamed for what drum corps has become and that I have supported this movement.

[RetiredJedi]

Mr. Karge,

I sincerely apologize to you for the remarks I made that have offended you.

I understand that your heart is in the right place and that you really do care for these kids.

Thank-You for being brave enough to come back and explain your views the way you have.

I'm feeling pretty ashamed of myself right now and hope that you will forgive me for my unacceptable behavior.

[k357]

How's this for positive reinforcement.... Back in 75 I marched with the Glassmen when we were a "Class A" corps... We had a really good drumline that was competitive with "Open" class corps, & the show before Marion Oh.(US Open anybody remember that???) our drumline had a TERRIBLE performance, I think it may have been American Intl. Open, not sure, BUT at any rate our drum instructor/arranger Mark Petty was less then impressed with us, & we weren't very happy with ourselves, so before we had our first rehearsal in Marion we took a "field trip",as in we marched maybe a mile playing our streetbeat, till we came to a parking lot, where the Madison Scouts drumline was getting ready to warmup... He had us put our equipment down, take a knee, & had us listen & watch while they rehearsed... After we watched & listened, he told us, "Sound & look like that, & you'll be GOOD..." We then marched back down to the school where we were staying & rehearsed our tails OFF, & we pushed ourselves!!!! I don't remember if we took top drums in "Class A" in Marion, but I do know we did in Class A in Philly.... IMHO this method worked better then any butt chewing.... BTW I can't remember any of doing mandatory push ups & running, we just rehearsed,rehearsed,rehearsed, & rehearsed some more till you didn't think you could move, then we did it some more, our director Bill Ellis had an expression when things were dirty & people were fouling up big time, it was "Back To The Peapatch" & we spent alot of time heading back there....

Edited August 20, 2010 by k357

[k357]

God forbid someone's precious little snowflake has to put forth some effort and breaks a sweat :)

Yep, if a member was afraid to work thier tail off & break a GOOD sweat for the duration of the rehearsal you weren't doing it right, & you weren't a member of the Glassmen very long... We had some HS band kids that tried to coast but didn't make it, didn't have the heart....

Edited August 20, 2010 by k357

[DrinkinOuttaCups]

See sig for marching experience.

Yes, sometimes I did push-ups for mental errors. It was at my own discretion - the instructors discouraged us from doing them during rehearsal time because they thought it would take time away from rehearsal. If you wanted to do them, do them during a water break or something. If you don't, just make a mental note of how you ####ed up and don't #### up again. I almost always did the latter, and I stopped ####### up.

But you know what? Why are people making such a big deal about push-ups and running? God forbid people possibly get a little stronger. Personally, my favorite was when sections would get together after rehearsals and do a set number of push-ups/Pilates/running, etc. together. It was a team-building exercise. Everybody was doing the exercise together, and they would encourage anybody who started to fall behind. People hyped on it. Punishment? No. Team-building and bonding through hard work? Abso-####ing-lutely.

[AlexL]

doublepost

Edited August 20, 2010 by AlexL