What direction will BD take in 2011?

[Rifuarian]

Short-sighted?..quite the opposite! In order to grow the activity you need a larger audience, not just the old fans that want the "formula" presentations each year: frenetic/kaleidoscope drill, familiar music with "big" moments, company (extended) fronts, hot drum breaks, Blah, Blah, Blah...all under the guise of some new title that means nothing to the actual production! It's the same every frickin' year! Play the tape for crying out loud.

Then one corps leaves the "circle of sameness" and we refuse to recognize their efforts for fear others will follow. Then we bark at em' to chase em' back in. This is precisely what happened to SOI 93...precisely. BD is wise enough to understand that what they are doing will be loved and remembered far longer than the short-sighted same productions that will be lost in the circle.

The ugly truth is that it isn't very hard to get the fans out their seats, there's a formula and most of the directors know it...big deal! Sometimes it's a hit, sometimes it's a miss, but they all know it. GH plans on it (3 times a show), and if Mason and company plans to go that way (and it sounds like it)...ughhhh!

What won't get the fans out of their seats?.....hogging the podium....and it ain't going to happen for BD as long as BD keeps doing it! You want to see the crowd react to BD?...all they need to do is come in 5th place a couple times in row, do a formula show and then the crowd will love them again and urge them on like Madison, Cavies and BC. NOTE: I'm not slamming their shows, I liked them all this year, but tell me the difference between them?...anything?

I will also remind you that as long as finals are in Indiana and BD continues to win...the reaction at finals will be the same....period! Bring it to California and you will see an entirely different reaction, there....they are happy for BD to win and aren't afraid of something new!!

P.S. BTW, you sound as if staffers/homers jumping to their feet in an attempt to stimulate the crowd is something new. It's what they do.

Cadets gave California something new in 07, and boy they sure loved it. Treated the Cadets and Hopkins like royalty.

[Lord Denning]

I hope they continue to frustrate. Listening to all the crying and moaning is hilarious.

[Plan9]

See, these are the two things I don't quite get in your post. You've spent the entire season trying to convince people that BD 2010 was another Star 93. The problem with that is, Star was a game-changer, when I really don't feel BD will ever be seen as that. Go watch the Finals video for both corps, and watch the crowd reaction. People loved Star at Finals, since it reached all of them. Now go look at BD's reaction. Still golf claps at Finals. There's a thin line between esoteric and just flat-out weird. I think BD crossed that line this year. When we look at the top 5 shows of all time, Star is #1, no BD show cracked that list, and I'm pretty darn sure we won't see this show jump onto that list, IMO.

And you've brought up regional bias all season, it's the same argument and excuse from you all the time. I really don't see any evidence for this. I live in California, I went to most of the shows out here this season, and I really didn't see any different reaction to BD than I saw on the tape in Indy. Or at any other stadium. And the ONE time that Finals was in California, I saw bigger crowd reactions for corps that weren't BD. Cadets did actually get a pretty big ovation, as did many other corps. So please, put away the regional bias shtick, because it just doesn't hold any relevance.

First of all, who decides the Top 5 whatever? Some poll? DCP? Just more of the same "circle". And just an aside, my guess is the outcome concerning Star would be different if the article was written back in 93... don't you think?? I'm not going to convience you of the reception of Star 93, you just need to read some of the posts from the members on here. Let them tell you. And they were from the mid-west. Regional schtick?..you've got be kidding me. You actually believe that if BD's show was as many DCPer's would want it..that the stands would errupt with cheers and "Come on BD...take another one home!" Smell the coffee, man!

You and the rest of the DCP crowd that uses fan-friendly, golf clap, all the usual "other side of the augument" drivel... it's all you have. There's nothing else. They're dominating the field in a big way, and it just isn't aligning with your reasoning. Like Salieri in Amadeus, he just couldn't reconcile the genius and art coming from Mozart... it just didn't fit...it was God's cruel joke. It's clouding your judgement, but just like Star under the dome in LOS in 2010, the crowd back then (like you now), finally came around.

[Photographer Jim]

You don't see it as an issue that the majority of the fans just didn't get it? I think you are being very short-sighted. In order to grow the activity we need to get the "fans" (not just BD fans) excited about drum corps. I loved the show (BD), but I am in the minority. I was in the crowd in Indy and I saw the crowd. If you didn't notice it, you were not looking. It really bothered me when I saw a BD staffer trying to get the crowd on their feet. Should they of had to encourage them to react?

Engaging the crowd (Madison) is what will grow the activity. Isn't it possible that the people you call "haters" actually love the activity. I brought non-drum corps people to a show this summer and they commented that BD just lost them. BD did not engage the crowd. If drum corps does not make a concerted effort to engage the crowd, we will become an even smaller niche activity. Is this what we want?

You can call me a BD "hater", but it wouldn't be true. But what I am even more is a lover of drum corps.

I can't see BD's show (or their approach to shows over the past few years) as being any threat to drum crops becoming a "smaller niche activity". The implication is that viewing one show (as in the case of your friends) that is an obvious diversion from the others is enough to sour new comers on the entire activity. I just can't see that happening. The other possible implication is more along the lines of the old chestnut "Because BD is winning with this stuff the other corps are all going to become BD clones and that will spell the end of drum corps as we know it". I don't really see that as happening either. (I mean I can not get my head wrapped around PR sitting down this winter and saying "Well, BD beat us again. Guess we better write a show of the most esoteric, avaunt guard jazz we can find ... oh, and add some giant appliances on wheels for props"!) Corps are going to continue to follow their own personal creative ideas, and (hopefully) stimulating diversity will reign -- regardless of what BD has been doing, or will do in the future.

I'd submit that in reality, efforts to grow the activity have always and will always depend on corps breaking away from the current "norm", even to the point of "crossing over the line" of fan expectations or preferences, even to the point of "alienating" some of those fans. I think it is a necessary component of all art. Artistic boundaries don't ever expand unless somebody is willing to risk testing how far those boundaries can stretch. If nobody does that, the art form will stagnate, and that is by far a greater threat to "becoming a smaller niche activity" than even the most "out there" controversial corps show could ever be.

BTW, I would never interpret your comments as being those of a hater. A hater openly expresses a desire that a particular corps should never, ever, ever win a competition under any circumstances .... ever. Kinda like me and the LA Dodgers! )

Edited August 24, 2010 by Photographer Jim

[Plan9]

I agree with you on the bolded part. Just funny that when say, Hopkins tries/suggests/changes rules that he thinks will help accomplish this he gets slammed.

But when BD puts mirrors on the field and plays music they know will not be loved by people, they're being innovative and people just need to get with the program.

And what, by the way, was so unique and un-formulaic in BD's show this year?

ETA: Also... keep in mind that if you're going to grow an audience, you need to make sure the people who are currently filling the stands stay in the stands.

It's hit or miss. Hoppy tried, but missed.. I'm sure he learned. But Hoppy is a formula guy, he builds a show for the crowd reaction.

And let me understand your point here....mirrors were a bad idea and BD knew people would not love them??? Where do get this stuff??

The mirrors were pure genius and they were used in remarkable ways. Read some of the reviews from pros that actually listened and watched. At the same time you might pick up a clue about the "so unique and un-formulaic" while you're at it.

Look, here's bottom line, you're backing horses that aren't getting it done... it's just the way it is..you can't re-write it. The corps you like bring the same thing every year with a different title, it's your comfort zone, and there's nothing wrong with that. Some are game changers, and some are just the game.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Plan9

[chaddyt]

It's hit or miss. Hoppy tried, but missed.. I'm sure he learned. But Hoppy is a formula guy, he builds a show for the crowd reaction.

And let me understand your point here....mirrors were a bad idea and BD knew people would not love them??? Where do get this stuff??

The mirrors were pure genius and they were used in remarkable ways. Read some of the reviews from pros that actually listened and watched. At the same time you might pick up a clue about the "so unique and un-formulaic" while you're at it.

Look, here's bottom line, you're backing horses that aren't getting it done... it's just the way it is..you can't re-write it. The corps you like bring the same thing every year with a different title, it's your comfort zone, and there's nothing wrong with that. Some are game changers, and some are just the game.

Uhh, no. Feel free to go back and read what I wrote. I said it was the MUSIC they knew would not be for everyone. I agree, the mirrors were different and used to great effect for reflecting the corps. Which is generally what mirrors do, although some may not consider it entirely "remarkable".

And Hop is ###### no matter what he does. He's formulaic and dull when he panders and gives the crowd what they want. He's the anti-christ when he tries something different....

And I apologize for not being a "pro" when it comes to BD's show. But I did listen. And I did watch. And it wasn't my cup of tea (apart from the guard which I'm convinced was sent from some other.

But, at this point, 2010 is behind us. BD won with a phenomenal corps. Hats off to them.

I'm just curious if the tone of your posts can get more condescending. "Aren't getting it done?" The corps I "back" certainly got it done for me this year. Best Top 12 in recent memory, IMO.

[GMichael1230]

First of all, who decides the Top 5 whatever? Some poll? DCP? Just more of the same "circle". And just an aside, my guess is the outcome concerning Star would be different if the article was written back in 93... don't you think?? I'm not going to convience you of the reception of Star 93, you just need to read some of the posts from the members on here. Let them tell you. And they were from the mid-west. Regional schtick?..you've got be kidding me. You actually believe that if BD's show was as many DCPer's would want it..that the stands would errupt with cheers and "Come on BD...take another one home!" Smell the coffee, man!

You and the rest of the DCP crowd that uses fan-friendly, golf clap, all the usual "other side of the augument" drivel... it's all you have. There's nothing else. They're dominating the field in a big way, and it just isn't aligning with your reasoning. Like Salieri in Amadeus, he just couldn't reconcile the genius and art coming from Mozart... it just didn't fit...it was God's cruel joke. It's clouding your judgement, but just like Star under the dome in LOS in 2010, the crowd back then (like you now), finally came around.

Who was asked to take part in the poll ? I know of Gary and I took part in the poll, I wonder how broad a spectrum was reached and how many people participated.

G

[fsubone]

You and the rest of the DCP crowd that uses fan-friendly, golf clap, all the usual "other side of the augument" drivel... it's all you have. There's nothing else. They're dominating the field in a big way, and it just isn't aligning with your reasoning. Like Salieri in Amadeus, he just couldn't reconcile the genius and art coming from Mozart... it just didn't fit...it was God's cruel joke. It's clouding your judgement, but just like Star under the dome in LOS in 2010, the crowd back then (like you now), finally came around.

Yeah, and your argument is all you have. You have nothing new. It's always the same thing, "people only hate it because it's winning, it's all regional, you just don't understand the show." If you had some kind of different argument, or some form of logic, I might be more inclined to believe you. And with the Top 5 poll, it was voted on, so sorry, but obviously the vast majority of people seem to agree that BD isn't all that legendary. Too bad for you. And about the regional thing, Finals in 1993 was in Jackson, Mississippi. That's pretty far away from the MidWest, or anywhere actually. People loved them, just how it went down.

[Plan9]

Uhh, no. Feel free to go back and read what I wrote. I said it was the MUSIC they knew would not be for everyone. I agree, the mirrors were different and used to great effect for reflecting the corps. Which is generally what mirrors do, although some may not consider it entirely "remarkable".

And Hop is ###### no matter what he does. He's formulaic and dull when he panders and gives the crowd what they want. He's the anti-christ when he tries something different....

And I apologize for not being a "pro" when it comes to BD's show. But I did listen. And I did watch. And it wasn't my cup of tea (apart from the guard which I'm convinced was sent from some other.

But, at this point, 2010 is behind us. BD won with a phenomenal corps. Hats off to them.

I'm just curious if the tone of your posts can get more condescending. "Aren't getting it done?" The corps I "back" certainly got it done for me this year. Best Top 12 in recent memory, IMO.

Condescending is in the eye of the condescended. I certainly don't want to be perceived as such, it's just the nature of argument. A person arguing for a winning team gets put in that position no matter what they say. Let me turn it around and ask you. What if I was to say, "Why did Mason and Co put such a maudlin, crowd pandering, re-tread of a show on the field this year, knowing that most people would see through it right away?" I could have said, "Mason and Co. chose a traditional design with some obviously sure-fire crowd response moments built in, in my view this is step one in re-connecting to the crowd and building a basement of confidence that something more was coming in the future". It's about approach.

You felt comfortable, almost like you were saying, "hell, everybody knows what I'm about to say is fact....."

the truth is that many on DCP feel very comfortable being condescending to BD... regularly...judging them in detail and at length, thread after thread...it's almost reached montra status. No other corps gets this tongue lashing, with such regularity and vitreol.

The "getting it done" comment comes from the knowledge that if BD lost over the last few years, there would be a great deal less attacks on them. But because they win, there is a population on DCP left to rationalize it away, and they do that by attacking them.

[GMichael1230]

Yeah, and your argument is all you have. You have nothing new. It's always the same thing, "people only hate it because it's winning, it's all regional, you just don't understand the show." If you had some kind of different argument, or some form of logic, I might be more inclined to believe you. And with the Top 5 poll, it was voted on, so sorry, but obviously the vast majority of people seem to agree that BD isn't all that legendary. Too bad for you. And about the regional thing, Finals in 1993 was in Jackson, Mississippi. That's pretty far away from the MidWest, or anywhere actually. People loved them, just how it went down.

"Vast majority" and "BD isnt all that legendary" ...pretty much sealed your fate, credibility - wise.

G