Championships lost to penalties

[jack4681]

Has anyone brought up the two point preliminary penalty to the Cavaliers at the 1970 VFW in Miami? Going into the championship the Cavies were one of the favorites and the execution dominated scoring seemed to make them the odds on pick. During the Cavaliers preliminary performance the sideline microphone was inadvertently left on causing feedback that had a minor effect to their performance. Before their score was announced the Cavaliers protested arguing that the feedback had affected their show. The VFW committee agreed and the Cavaliers were allowed another chance. It’s been a long time but my memory tells me they received the exact same score the second time except for a two point flag violation and thus knocking them out of serious contention for the title. After calculating the penalty the Cavies had wound up 11th in the prelims. A spirited finals performance brought them back to 3rd but it had to be one of the more bizarre penalty stories ever.

[Northern Thunder]

The Cavaliers received a 2.0 penalty at prelims, and would have been 5th place without it. They didn't get any penalties at finals, and jumped up to 3rd.

The written report on that 1970 VFW performance by the Cavaliers stated that one of the things overheard on the messed-up p.a. system was a radio broadcast of somebody giving the recipe for chicken cacciatore

[HornsUp]

The Cavaliers ... didn't get any penalties at finals, and jumped up to 3rd.

The Cavaliers got a 0.4 penalty on the 10 point Cadence sheet. The Cadence judge was Tony Schlecta's crony, and in this case was insuring that the Cavaliers didn't get too close to his beloved "Caspers, from Trooper Wyoming".

Edited September 30, 2010 by HornsUp

[HornsUp]

The write up in "A History of Drum & Bugle Corps Volume 2" could be misleading. Always best to check the recaps if they are available. 1968 is incorrect.

Please tell us what is written up in this book, and upon what authority.

I will then respond here with all the correct information.

Edited September 30, 2010 by HornsUp

[Donny Drum Corps]

St Joes from Batavia only lost the NYS VFW Championships twice from 1962 through 1971...in 1964 for a flag violation and 1971 for overage member(s)...both penalties were called out by the Utica (Magnificent) Yankees...in fact I cant remember Utica ever beating St Joes without a penalty being involved.

Donny

[Northern Thunder]

The Cavaliers got a 0.4 penalty on the 10 point Cadence sheet. The Cadence judge was Tony Schlecta's crony, and in this case was insuring that the Cavaliers didn't get too close to his beloved "Caspers, from Trooper Wyoming".

I never considered cadence to be a penalty, since it was its own caption.

[Northern Thunder]

Please tell us what is written up in this book, and upon what authority.

I will then respond here with all the correct information.

The Royal Airs chapter was written by Jeff Helgeson (member 1963 through 1968). He states that Tony Schlechta apparently announced that had it not been for the penalty, the Royal Airs would have won. I don't doubt that Schlechta would have made such a statement. (He was often not quite "sober".) Obviously Tony was wrong, since I previously pointed out that without the penalty the Royal Airs could have gotten only as high as 2nd place.

[HornsUp]

Thanks, Brian. Jeff Helgeson is a college English professor, and writes quite clearly.

Let's set the stage for the scenario in Detroit. In the 60s, it was the height of the tick era. The VFW's scoring system had a 10 point Inspection caption and a 10 point Cadence caption. 30 points was allotted for Marching & Maneuvering. 20 points apiece were allocated from Drumming and Bugling. A scant 10 points was given to General Effect. There was a credit subcaption for difficulty on the Bugling sheet. There was no buildup criteria on the Marching or Drumming sheets. G.E. was overall, and the judges seldom had any knowledge of rudimental drumming. At the National Contest, there were two judges on each caption. Their scores were averaged before being summed with the others, to arrive at the total score. Penalties (flag code, timing, dropped equipment, etc.) were deducted from the total of all the captions.

In 1968 there were no computers, no calculators, no cassette recorders. Everything was done in pen, duplication was usually with carbon paper. A really BIG contest might have purple recaps cranked out on a spirit duplicator. Tabulation by hand, at a table on the front sideline, sometimes resulted in embarrassing errors.

At the VFW Nationals, there were no recapitulation sheets furnished. The recaps of all their pageantry contests were published months later, in a stapled sheaf of papers mailed to the participants. The system truly lacked accountability. In fact at the 1964 prelims in Cleveland, the Garfield Cadets received 30.5 points out of a total 30 in M&M. This got them into finals, knocking out Bridgeport PAL and the Racine Scouts who tied and should have shared the 12th place. Another tabulation controversy marred the 1966 VFW Nationals, culminating in the infamous "sit-down" of the I.C. Reveries.

Now in the 60s, the DMs would receive their corps' scoresheets in a sealed envelope. As their units were in turn dismissed during the Retreat Ceremony, these sheets were handed over to the corps' staff. Immediately, all the instructors would check the tabulation and summation. Any inconsistencies would of course immediately be brought to the contest officials. It was not uncommon to hear "Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a tabulation error".

In addition, corps attending the VFW Nationals knew there would be no recapitulations posted. So it was common practice for the corps' staff members to seek each other out on the sidelines, and compare scores. Truthfully, nobody really wanted to be scored unfairly because of a tab error. And any unit unwilling to share their scores would be highly suspicious of a cover-up.

The 1968 VFW Nationals were held in Detroit on Wed. Aug 21 (CorpsReps is not correct on this date). I was on the sidelines that night, as a member of the Kilties' bugle staff.

I truly do not recall the announcement which Jeff Helgeson alludes to. [but then again, Tony Schlecta usually schlurred his schyllables sho badly it wash difficult to deschipher what he wash schaying.] But I was proudly sharing my bugle scores, and collecting and recording the others.

The Detroit recaps are posted here: http://racinekiltiealumni.org/4_1968_Kiltie_Photos.html These are not the official printed recaps sent out in November by the VFW, but are excerpted from Jodeen Popp's history book, which is turn is mostly excerpted from various drum corps newspapers and magazines.

But they are the actual scores. If there had been any discrepancies, they would have been rectified that night by the combined vigilance of the various corps staff members.

And if you knew him, you could be #### sure that the Royal Airs' Sie Lurye would NEVER have allowed his unit to lose on a tabulation error !!!

Edited October 1, 2010 by HornsUp

[elphaba01]

St Joes from Batavia only lost the NYS VFW Championships twice from 1962 through 1971...in 1964 for a flag violation and 1971 for overage member(s)...both penalties were called out by the Utica (Magnificent) Yankees...in fact I cant remember Utica ever beating St Joes without a penalty being involved.

Donny

Penalties":

Not a penalty that cost a corps a title, but one that may have set a record. Way back in 1964 the NY Daily News held a drum corps "Championship" at the World's Fair's Shea Stadium.

They had a "Prelim" (Won by Blessed Sacrament, due to a 2 point "Lateness" penalty to the Garfield Cadets), but THE "Record Penalty" went to St Josephs Patron Cdaets who were smacked with a whopping 17 POINTS in penalties for being late.

Blessed Sacrament went on to win the junior "Finals" (St Lucys & Garfiled were the other "Finalists"), and the Hathorne Caballeros won the Senior NY Daily News Championship with the Sunrisers and Marksmen rounding out the contest.

The 1962 NY AL "State" title went to the Loretto Knights via a three point penalty to Selden Cadets. Had not Selden been so heavily "Tagged", they would have won by .2 point.

Scores/Info coutresy Selden Cadets web site.

Elphaba

WWW

Edited October 2, 2010 by elphaba01

[Ghost]

Has anyone brought up the two point preliminary penalty to the Cavaliers at the 1970 VFW in Miami? Going into the championship the Cavies were one of the favorites and the execution dominated scoring seemed to make them the odds on pick. During the Cavaliers preliminary performance the sideline microphone was inadvertently left on causing feedback that had a minor effect to their performance. Before their score was announced the Cavaliers protested arguing that the feedback had affected their show. The VFW committee agreed and the Cavaliers were allowed another chance. It’s been a long time but my memory tells me they received the exact same score the second time except for a two point flag violation and thus knocking them out of serious contention for the title. After calculating the penalty the Cavies had wound up 11th in the prelims. A spirited finals performance brought them back to 3rd but it had to be one of the more bizarre penalty stories ever.

You might have heard this from DIGGA, a BAC alumnus who walked into the tent during the Cavies complaint. No BAC rep was there other than DIGGA (who was not part of the corps staff)in his MDC lifeguard hat. Understand he did a bang-up job of arguing for Chicago not to get any breaks.