Championships lost to penalties

[Robert Kirby]

If I remember correctly, the penalities for many of the senior corps at the 1957 American Legion Nationals revolved around UNDERAGE members. Back then the senior corps had lower age limits (must be 21) and maybe even some veteran status (having served in the military). I know that there was definitely one year where they hammered a bunch of senior corps for sneaking in younger (better?) members. My good friend, the late Bob Hoehn Jr., was marching with Harvey Seeds Senior Corps from Florida and was caught (he was 15 or 16) along with others. It may have been in 1957. He went on to march with the Chicago Cavaliers (1960 - 62) and won the baritone individual championships a couple times.

Ironic, I know, that a future Cavalier got his corps disqualified for abusing the "age limitation" rule!

The fabulous NanciD has preserved this interesting bit of history from 1963. I'm not sure what the state of play would have been earlier, or in AL or VFW contests.

Robert

[chasgroh]

Thanks, Brian. Jeff Helgeson is a college English professor, and writes quite clearly.

Let's set the stage for the scenario in Detroit. In the 60s, it was the height of the tick era. The VFW's scoring system had a 10 point Inspection caption and a 10 point Cadence caption. 30 points was allotted for Marching & Maneuvering. 20 points apiece were allocated from Drumming and Bugling. A scant 10 points was given to General Effect. There was a credit subcaption for difficulty on the Bugling sheet. There was no buildup criteria on the Marching or Drumming sheets. G.E. was overall, and the judges seldom had any knowledge of rudimental drumming. At the National Contest, there were two judges on each caption. Their scores were averaged before being summed with the others, to arrive at the total score. Penalties (flag code, timing, dropped equipment, etc.) were deducted from the total of all the captions.

In 1968 there were no computers, no calculators, no cassette recorders. Everything was done in pen, duplication was usually with carbon paper. A really BIG contest might have purple recaps cranked out on a spirit duplicator. Tabulation by hand, at a table on the front sideline, sometimes resulted in embarrassing errors.

At the VFW Nationals, there were no recapitulation sheets furnished. The recaps of all their pageantry contests were published months later, in a stapled sheaf of papers mailed to the participants. The system truly lacked accountability. In fact at the 1964 prelims in Cleveland, the Garfield Cadets received 30.5 points out of a total 30 in M&M. This got them into finals, knocking out Bridgeport PAL and the Racine Scouts who tied and should have shared the 12th place. Another tabulation controversy marred the 1966 VFW Nationals, culminating in the infamous "sit-down" of the I.C. Reveries.

Now in the 60s, the DMs would receive their corps' scoresheets in a sealed envelope. As their units were in turn dismissed during the Retreat Ceremony, these sheets were handed over to the corps' staff. Immediately, all the instructors would check the tabulation and summation. Any inconsistencies would of course immediately be brought to the contest officials. It was not uncommon to hear "Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a tabulation error".

In addition, corps attending the VFW Nationals knew there would be no recapitulations posted. So it was common practice for the corps' staff members to seek each other out on the sidelines, and compare scores. Truthfully, nobody really wanted to be scored unfairly because of a tab error. And any unit unwilling to share their scores would be highly suspicious of a cover-up.

The 1968 VFW Nationals were held in Detroit on Wed. Aug 21 (CorpsReps is not correct on this date). I was on the sidelines that night, as a member of the Kilties' bugle staff.

I truly do not recall the announcement which Jeff Helgeson alludes to. [but then again, Tony Schlecta usually schlurred his schyllables sho badly it wash difficult to deschipher what he wash schaying.] But I was proudly sharing my bugle scores, and collecting and recording the others.

The Detroit recaps are posted here: http://racinekiltiealumni.org/4_1968_Kiltie_Photos.html These are not the official printed recaps sent out in November by the VFW, but are excerpted from Jodeen Popp's history book, which is turn is mostly excerpted from various drum corps newspapers and magazines.

But they are the actual scores. If there had been any discrepancies, they would have been rectified that night by the combined vigilance of the various corps staff members.

And if you knew him, you could be #### sure that the Royal Airs' Sie Lurye would NEVER have allowed his unit to lose on a tabulation error !!!

...nice synopsis! From one who rarely competed under VFW rules ('cause we were so dang far away from all that!)...interesting, you mention '68, first time I met Norman was when Mike Duffy and I saw one of your rehearsals in Windsor...amazing drum corps, and we were amazed and delighted when you won.

cg

Edited October 3, 2010 by chasgroh

[byline]

The 1968 VFW Nationals were held in Detroit on Wed. Aug 21 (CorpsReps is not correct on this date).

You should let Chris Maher at corpsreps.com know. Any time I have contacted him about correcting or updating contest information, he's been very good about making those changes.

[reallyoldfrt]

Back in the day; specifically at the AL Nationals in Atlantic City N.J.; the Legion had a strict membership rule for Senior Corps. In 1957 the rule was 90/10. 90% of a Senior Corps members had to be, not only military veterans, but card-carrying members of the American Legion. It was their National Championship after all.Corps had to submit their rosters to the AL, and have their membership cards verified. Otherwise, corps could declare how many non-Legionnaires were in their ranks, and take a one tenth penalty for each one over the allowed 10%. Some corps thought it would be better to lie, avoid the penalties, and hope they didn't get caught. In any case it was that rule, I think, was the source of all the penalties in that show.

At the prelims, indoors at Convention Hall, superb performances were given by the Reilly Raiders, by Harvey Seeds Post from Miami and one other corps whose name has disappeared from my memory banks. The acoustics were a lot better there than Olympic Stadium in Montreal in 81. But I digress. Subsequent to the Prelim, another corps, the grapevine identified the corps as the Skyliners, called the membership rolls submitted by the aforementioned corps into question. Reilly, Harvey Seeds, and Corps X were disqualified. This resulted in Sky making the finals.

Politics were very cutthroat in the days of the Veterans hegemony. (That would never happen today .) Reilly was, (still is), actually a VFW Post, and I don't think the Legion boys shed any tears over them.

If memory serves, Harvey Seeds admitted their "regrettable paperwork mistakes", apologized, and offered to put on an exhibition show at the Finals. The offer was accepted . Reilly, on the other hand, felt that they had been "ratted out" by Sky, an unforgivable breach of unwritten intercorps code of conduct.

That night the Skyliners were first to compete. As they took the starting line the entire Reilly Raiders corps, wearing their uniform trousers, white T shirts, "Gestapo" hats, and blood in their eyes, appeared behind Sky. They marched in single file along the back sideline to the opposite end of the floor, and took seats in the 1st row of chairs along the finish line.

The Legion contest committee just about filled their shorts at that point. After a short delay featuring much dithering and hand wringing, the Skyliners were allowed to perform. Everyone in the place was prepared to witness an historic donnybrook when Sky hit the finish line.

Under the existing tension Sky did a very decent job. As they headed for the finish line one of their buglers crashed to the floor. We'd all seen people faint on the field, but this guy went down suddenly and hard. EMTs rushed onto the floor to help him, but the guy never moved. He appeared to be in serious trouble. There was so much concern, from everyone in the building, that all thoughts of violence and retribution were wiped out. There was something far more important going on. Word spread that the guy was dead. I never did find out for sure.

[Fran Haring]

Sky in 72 for DCA?

Yes, I believe so.

A one-point penalty... and they lost the show by less than one point.

[Fran Haring]

That penalty WAS for dropped equipment (rifle), but in those days that was ruled a penalty.

Back in the day... at least on the DCA side.... it was a one-tenth penalty for dropping equipment, and a one-point penalty added on if you picked up the equipment that you dropped.

That actually happened my first year in Sunrisers.... 1977... at a show in upstate NY, late in the season. We had a soprano player who was brand-new to drum corps (came to us from a college band, I'm pretty sure).... and no one in the corps thought to fill him in on some of the rules.

So.... at that show, at the end of one of our tunes, when we all put our horns down at our sides, he lost his grip and the soprano dropped from his hand to the ground. On sheer reflex, he reached down and picked the horn up. All of this right in front of the timing and penalties judge. LOL. 1.1 in penalties.

The horn player was devastated after the performance.... but we went easy on him, since hey... he didn't know any better. And we still ended up winning the show! That eased the pain just a bit.

[Fran Haring]

The Cavaliers received a 2.0 penalty at prelims, and would have been 5th place without it. They didn't get any penalties at finals, and jumped up to 3rd.

The written report on that 1970 VFW performance by the Cavaliers stated that one of the things overheard on the messed-up p.a. system was a radio broadcast of somebody giving the recipe for chicken cacciatore

That is a wild story.

I wonder if that was the biggest prelims-to-finals jump in drum corps history?

[GUARDLING]

Garfield missed being in the 1972 DCI finals because of penalties. They missed 12th place by 0.4, and they got 1.8 in penalties, while the 12th place Bleu Raeders had none.

Crossmen missed being in 1979 DCI finals due to penalties. They would have tied the Troopers for 12th, but they got 0.4 in penalties, while the Troopers got 0.2. Crossmen missed tying Troopers by those extra 0.2.

Sad part for Garfield and it's members was that the very seasoned staff knew it and was warned through the year. hmmmmmmmm

[Joe S]

Back in the day... at least on the DCA side.... it was a one-tenth penalty for dropping equipment, and a one-point penalty added on if you picked up the equipment that you dropped.

That actually happened my first year in Sunrisers.... 1977... at a show in upstate NY, late in the season. We had a soprano player who was brand-new to drum corps (came to us from a college band, I'm pretty sure).... and no one in the corps thought to fill him in on some of the rules.

So.... at that show, at the end of one of our tunes, when we all put our horns down at our sides, he lost his grip and the soprano dropped from his hand to the ground. On sheer reflex, he reached down and picked the horn up. All of this right in front of the timing and penalties judge. LOL. 1.1 in penalties.

The horn player was devastated after the performance.... but we went easy on him, since hey... he didn't know any better. And we still ended up winning the show! That eased the pain just a bit.

Ok pal when did you guys ever go easy on anyone ???????????

Edited January 14, 2011 by Joe S

[ajlisko]

Back in the day; specifically at the AL Nationals in Atlantic City N.J.; the Legion had a strict membership rule for Senior Corps. In 1957 the rule was 90/10. 90% of a Senior Corps members had to be, not only military veterans, but card-carrying members of the American Legion. It was their National Championship after all.Corps had to submit their rosters to the AL, and have their membership cards verified. Otherwise, corps could declare how many non-Legionnaires were in their ranks, and take a one tenth penalty for each one over the allowed 10%. Some corps thought it would be better to lie, avoid the penalties, and hope they didn't get caught. In any case it was that rule, I think, was the source of all the penalties in that show.

At the prelims, indoors at Convention Hall, superb performances were given by the Reilly Raiders, by Harvey Seeds Post from Miami and one other corps whose name has disappeared from my memory banks. The acoustics were a lot better there than Olympic Stadium in Montreal in 81. But I digress. Subsequent to the Prelim, another corps, the grapevine identified the corps as the Skyliners, called the membership rolls submitted by the aforementioned corps into question. Reilly, Harvey Seeds, and Corps X were disqualified. This resulted in Sky making the finals.

Politics were very cutthroat in the days of the Veterans hegemony. (That would never happen today .) Reilly was, (still is), actually a VFW Post, and I don't think the Legion boys shed any tears over them.

If memory serves, Harvey Seeds admitted their "regrettable paperwork mistakes", apologized, and offered to put on an exhibition show at the Finals. The offer was accepted . Reilly, on the other hand, felt that they had been "ratted out" by Sky, an unforgivable breach of unwritten intercorps code of conduct.

That night the Skyliners were first to compete. As they took the starting line the entire Reilly Raiders corps, wearing their uniform trousers, white T shirts, "Gestapo" hats, and blood in their eyes, appeared behind Sky. They marched in single file along the back sideline to the opposite end of the floor, and took seats in the 1st row of chairs along the finish line.

The Legion contest committee just about filled their shorts at that point. After a short delay featuring much dithering and hand wringing, the Skyliners were allowed to perform. Everyone in the place was prepared to witness an historic donnybrook when Sky hit the finish line.

Under the existing tension Sky did a very decent job. As they headed for the finish line one of their buglers crashed to the floor. We'd all seen people faint on the field, but this guy went down suddenly and hard. EMTs rushed onto the floor to help him, but the guy never moved. He appeared to be in serious trouble. There was so much concern, from everyone in the building, that all thoughts of violence and retribution were wiped out. There was something far more important going on. Word spread that the guy was dead. I never did find out for sure.

Archie was the third corps DQ'd ... they won the Prelims ... for the life of me, I do not recall Skyliner fokelore depicting any involment there ... they were in 8th at Prelims prior to the DQ's and finished 6th at Finals ... the three corps that benefited from the DQ's were Pittsburgh, Morristown and Kewanee ... I do remember hearing stories of the riff between Archie and Reilly resulting in both being DQ'd but not NY ... perhaps Sky's most learned historian, Ray Priester, can offer come comment on what may have transpired in Atlantic City that year ...

:-)

Edited January 15, 2011 by ajlisko