G-8/everyone else audition camp disparity

[corpsband]

<method="Socratic" mode="ON">

So what did those corps *do* that allowed them to move up (which feedback-loops into better retention and better recruiting)?

One of the things they did was make bold programming choices over the past five or six years, including some choices that weren't conventional or at least not conventionally popular. By taking chances with voice and/or strong thematic approaches, they developed identities which helped attract and retain talent, without which their success would have faded. There's obviously more to the formula than just mics or sewing machines. You must acknowledge, however, how their success accompanied such defining choices while others who took a more conservative approach couldn't match the climb.

Anyone else want to jump in on this question?

FWIW I think one of the things corps which are on the move do is evaluate themselves honestly and objectively to see weaknesses and aggressively address them.

[BlooContraGuy]

The Bluecoats had a good, well attended camp this weekend. I think it had more to do with a lot of kids liking the shows we've done this past year and the years before, more so than kids wanting to participate in the experimental Tour of Champions that will be happening this summer. Just a thought.

[BRASSO]

Disagree. Tell Carolina Crown that it's impossible to come from nowhere and compete regularly in the top 5. Also, tell Phantom that winning DCI will guarantee them a top 5 finish the following year. The members are one piece of a very large puzzle. I've heard many many times former champions laugh at the notion that they had the most talented members. They just worked harder than everyone else that year, and the other pieces of the puzzle were in place.

80% of all the DCI Titles ( 30 out of 39 ) have all been won by 3 Corps. I don't believe for a second that all these years ( since the early 70's ) that these 3 Corps members won principally because they" just worked harder than anyone else " in the other 200 Corps in this 35 year DCI span. Of course, others can certainly believe that the marchers in all the other Corps just didn't measure up in the" hard work " dept. compared to these 3 Corps marchers. But not me.

Edited November 23, 2010 by BRASSO

[craiga]

This is an interesting conversation, and I would like to add the following. Some folks here (like many fans at shows, btw) are guilty of confusing competitive success (the numbers game and the bowling trophies) with performance success----ie, how the corps looks and sounds and how it affects the audience.

The numbers game isn't just a function of how well your show is crafted, your talent level, and the experience level of your staff. Since we ARE a competitive activity, your competitive success also has to do with the level your competitors are at, which you cannot control.

Case in point: I would suggest that the '09 Blue Stars were the best that corps had ever been, yet they found themselves behind BAC at the end. Why? Hadn't they grown from '08? Of course they had. Their competition (in this case, Boston) had grown even more, a fact which Bluestars had no control over.

Conversely, the 2010 Boston corps in many repects was the best ever to wear the uniform, yet we find Bluestars prevailed. As a BAC alum, I'm not necessarily much of a Blue Stars fan, yet I watched them in Allentown and was impressed, and it seems to me that they had an even BETTER year.

So, the Blue Stars came in 8th again and BAC fell from 7th the prior year to 9th this year. Did BS stagnate at 8th and BAC suddenly regress to 9th? Boston dropped! They must have had a sudden lack of talent, or their staff and management (which delivered 7th place the prior year) must have forgotten how to teach.....you get the idea.

Ultimately, when you obsess about placements and attempt to craft explanations and find trends, it becomes a circular argument because there is no one cause in such a subjective activity. Which comes first, the members or the success? There was a time when Boston was national champion, followed years later by a corps of 51 members. And, the once 3rd place Blue Stars found themselves in Div III for a time before clawing their way back into the top 12.

I would argue that both of these corps are doing all the right things and are extremely successful these days. And, neither has any control over the scores awarded to the Blue Devils, for example, regardless of their programming choices.

Edited November 23, 2010 by craiga

[Jeff Ream]

So there's a clear disconnect to you between what is popular with audiences and rewarded by the judges?

Mike

well duh

[BRASSO]

I agree. Talent isn't everything. Blue Stars evidently had the most talented snare player in DCI in 2009, so why didn't they win drums?

Why ? This is because the percussion caption does not reward individiual snare drumming efficiency. The judge is asked to evaluate the GROUP percussion section 's efficiency in playing together in unison.

Some of the best individual brass players, or guard performers were not in units that won thhe brass caption or guard caption last year either.

Look, the reality is that each year the collective try out talent that walks through the camp doors of the 3 Corps of the Blue Devils, Cadets, and Cavaliers is better than ALL the other World Class and Open Class Corps combined.

The notion that " hard work " is what principally separates these 3 Corps from the others is a real disservice to the work ethic of all the other marchers in all the other Corps.

No disrespect to the brass line of ( say ) the Troopers, but their brass line could work together as a unit 8 hours a day for the next decade and they would not be able to match the brass line talent that the Blue Devils had their first time they played their opening musical stanza back in December of last year. That's just the reality here. We can't kid ourselves that it is " hard work " that resulted in 80% of the DCI Titles going to just 3 Corps since 1972. Sure, these marchers in these 3 Corps the last 35 years worked their butts off. But they did not have the corner on " hard work " over all the other hundreds of Corps out there during this 35 year time period.

Edited November 23, 2010 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

Why ? This is because the percussion caption does not reward individiual snare drumming efficiency. The judge is asked to evaluate the GROUP percussion section 's efficiency in playing together in unison.

Some of thr best individual brass players, or Guard performers were not in units that won that brass caption or Guard caption either.

Look, the reality is the each year the collective try out talent that walks through the camp doors of the 3 Corps of the Blue Devils, Cadets, and Cavaliers is better than ALL the other World Class and Open Class Corps combined.

The notion that " hard work " is what principally separates these 3 Corps from the others is a real disservice to the work ethic of all the other marchers in all the other Corps.

No disrespect to the brass line of ( say ) the Troopers, but their brass line could work together as a unit 8 hours a day for the next decade and they would not be able to match the brass line talent that the Blue Devils had their first time they played their opening musical stanza back in December of last year. That's just the reality here.

there is deep talent at all levels.

but talent is everything. give talent Pio's show last year. is it still 23rd?

you have to have staff continuity, a solid program in place for fundamentals...you have to get the kids you choose to do it your way all the way

and you have to have the program that matches the sheets

[corpsband]

The numbers game isn't just a function of how well your show is crafted, your talent level, and the experience level of your staff. Since we ARE a competitive activity, your competitive success also has to do with the level your competitors are at, which you cannot control.

<snip>

Ultimately, when you obsess about placements and attempt to craft explanations and find trends, it becomes a circular argument because there is no one cause in such a subjective activity. Which comes first, the members or the success?

Great point!!

[BRASSO]

there is deep talent at all levels.

but talent is everything. give talent Pio's show last year. is it still 23rd?

you have to have staff continuity, a solid program in place for fundamentals...you have to get the kids you choose to do it your way all the way

and you have to have the program that matches the sheets

We've had staff that have worked with Corps that won DCI Titles.

Simultaneously, they worked with other Corps.... Corps that didn't fare all that well.

Did the Corps that won the DCI Title with that staff member do so principally because they worked harder than the other Corps with that same staff member ? In most cases the answer is " no ".

Then what allowed the first Corps to win a DCI Title and the other not to fare as well ? Well, we generally know the reason. Usually, it is the talent level differential more than any other single factor.

Arguably, the greatest basketball team ever put on a basketball court may have been the 1986 Boston Celtics. They dominated the competition. ( were 40-1 at home ) They had the deepest bench depth ever in the NBA ( Bill Walton came off the bench, for example ). Their Coach was K C Jones. Did the Celtics win it all in 1986 principally because K.C. Jones, who designed all the plays, was the greatest basketball Coach ever ? Hardly. K.C. Jones was a nice guy , but a mediocre Coach at best. The Celtics won not because they had a lock on " hard work ". Or a great coaching staff that designed all the plays. They won principally because they had a lock on the most experienced, saavy, basketball talent that year more than anything else.

Edited November 23, 2010 by BRASSO

[charlie1223]

Look, the reality is that each year the collective try out talent that walks through the camp doors of the 3 Corps of the Blue Devils, Cadets, and Cavaliers is better than ALL the other World Class and Open Class Corps combined.

That;s really hard to gauge...

I would say that talent is important... but maybe the MOST important is experience... well actually the most important quality is if they can pay for it! XD