audiodb Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 What the heck is this thread about again? It's about drum corps....which, as we are repeatedly told, is the same as marching band. Threads can encompass a wide variety of discussion when such liberties are taken with the definition of terms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) Words have meanings or what they represent is meaningless. We wonder why so many things are "relative" to what whatever that person "thinks" is true to them is why we are in such deep doodoo in this country IMHO. Hell, I might as well think that the Constitution of the United States is a framework for a English Style Monarchy because that's what "I" believe despite realities. Wow. Hey hello?! Wake up! this is drum corps we are talking about. It's art and competition combined. This isn't a political system or economic structure. This is ART. You can't compare the two! People can have a million ####### opinions about ART and it won't hurt anyone a #### bit. your comparison is insane and ridiculous. Saying that I think drum corps can involve electronics, voice, synths, woodwinds etc. does not destroy what drum corps is. Heck, the thing we had 20 - 30 years ago was not drum and bugle corps as it was in the 19th and 20th centuries. Maybe that can be considered changing the meaning of words and all the other stuff you're talking. Oh my god! Edited January 3, 2011 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) Any time I see posts in these threads about the benefits of amplification because now the pit can play with "correct concert technique", I have to scratch my head a little. Is anyone under the illusion that anyone else in the corps is playing with "correct concert technique"? When the horns are playing at triple-blastissimo, when I'm watching the snare drummers start a stroke with the butt-end of the stick two inches above the brim of their shakos--none of that smacks of "correct concert technique" to me. That doesn't bother me, though, as I'm not watching an indoor concert, I'm watching an outdoor marching ensemble. I would expect the technique to be different, the equipment to be different, darn near everything to be different, because the venue and the activity are different. Does anyone think that a modern marching snare has anywhere near the sound quality of a good concert snare? To me they sound atrocious--on their own--but perfectly suited to the situation they were designed for. I guess I never minded the "bang away" pits from back in the day, just like I never minded loud, occasionally raucous hornlines or stick-above-your-head drumline closers--I assumed those things were done for the purpose of producing an effective, outdoor, fill-up-the-stadium sound called drum and bugle corps. Oh then you must know a better way to play marimba? You must have marched in DCI pit before? You must obviously have experienced playing mallet percussion in a number of different venues? Please, inform yourself before you start making generalizations about the pit. It's easy to make those opinions if you don't know anything about what it means to play percussion in a pit. You know, corps are being judged on technique right?! The pit is being judged on technique and since I'm assuming you know nothing about mallet technique you shouldn't be saying anything about what you expect the technique for mallet playing "should" be like. Drum Corps has changed not only because designers and synths have changed but because the KIDS doing the activity has also changed. They aren't "off the street" kids anymore, and many of them are middle class kids in college. And even more of them are music majors more than ever before. Most of the people in drum corps developed techniques from their middle school/ highschool band program which all teach how to play in a certain way. It only makes sense to continue that same approach into drum corps. Kids actually do drum corps now to get "better" because drum corps teaches them skills (musical skills) that they can apply to their own playing away from the activity. If Drum Corps was do whatever you want, play loud and "raucous" then none of the people who are currently doing drum corps would want to do it. It wasn't until recently that drum corps gained the reputation of actually being a positive experience for musicians from a musical stand point. And it only gained that reputation from maintaining a strict set of technique guidelines that allow for students to grow in areas outside of drum corps as well as within drum corps. The only reason drum corps has gained any respect in the larger musical world is because of these developments in technique and using appropriate and correct technique (technique that isn't implemented because someone said so but because it is the most effective and efficient way of playing the instrument) You're forgetting about the kids... as people on here always do. Edited January 3, 2011 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 psst...the corps make the rules, so they already decide what drum corps is. they deice a lot of things, and as a result, we see DCi losing more fans ever year. so really, we have these guys crying the system of touring they created as being a failure, and trying to change things in a way that only favor a few. Are you really sure we want these guys to have carte blanche even more than they already do? First of all... I remember seeing a nice little graph on hear with finals attendence over the past few years and the trend as been that the number of people attending finals have gone up. I remember this graph was on here recently. Plus you can not say that the number of fans has gone down... Who even knows how many "fans" drum corps has to begin with so that statement is false by lack of evidence!! Oh, so then are you saying that if drum corps was more the way you want it to be that it would be better? Wow, never heard that before... The people who RUN the corps, people who design shows for months out the year, people who spend 90 plus days traveling on busses, the staff, the directors, who invest so much time out of the year for drum corps... have MORE invested in drum corps than the average fan who attends one or two shows a year. THose people want drum corps to be successful more than anyone else! (If you can even imagine that). Who do you think looses more if drum corps is no more? (ofcourse they both lose, but who looses more) Mr. Average Joe who sees one or two shows a summer? Or the directors, staff, designers, DCI affiliates, who literally work day and night trying to run a corps, Working tirelessly during the summer to teach and make a show. Those individuals who have dedicated their lives to drum corps for YEARS AND YEARS. They have so much riding on drum corps that they don't want to screw up. People have different ideas of what to do but they don't want to "mess up" drum corps. We can say that they are now, but that's not true until we see results. So you go ahead and keep "bashing" on those "guys". We forget that they have as much passion (if not more for their dedication to the activity) than you do and have a lot more riding on its success than you can imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jplattSCV Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Oh then you must know a better way to play marimba? You must have marched in DCI pit before? You must obviously have experienced playing mallet percussion in a number of different venues? Please, inform yourself before you start making generalizations about the pit. It's easy to make those opinions if you don't know anything about what it means to play percussion in a pit. I agree and I disagree. I would never call what the pits use "concert technique" even after the amps. There is still a ton of visual fluff added to the strokes of almsot every pit. You see this annoying "pull the sound" business applied. I'm sorry, but your still hitting it. You don't pull on it. That said, I was in the pit for 5 years and I can definitely say that we were banging away relative to how they can play now. The pit amplification has allowed them to play at much more controlled volumes, yes. But, more than that it protects the instruments themselves. We routinely cracked bars in marimbas and it was from no other reason than we were beating the dog snot out them all day every day. I'm not a fan of amplication other than for the pragmatic reason that in this case I believe it might actually save the instruments from being damaged to the point that they are no longer playable. There were definitely times where we were scratching our back between notes. If I can see your triceps and your elbows are above your ears when playing marimba, your probably doing some damage. The mics prevent this. If your going to use the B-flat horns it is basically hypocritical, in my opinion not to mic the pit. Throwing vocals in and adding synth is a different thread of justification. Using B-flat horns and amplifying the grounded percussion fixes a problem (at least a preceived problem by someone). Vocals and Synths don't fix a problem and are therefore just a change for the sake of change. And it is these aspects of show designs that can elicit a 100 page thread. This one is gonna get there soon. That's just my 2 cents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) It's about the slippery slope of drum corps following the scholastic music world into the realm of WGI with electronic music background. Beginning with the emphasis on visual, continuing to the acceptance of open instrumentation and voice, and potentially ending with drum corps looking more like Tarpon Springs 2010 than Cadets 2000. Agree or disagree, that's what this thread is about. I do not believe in the slippery slope. Corps will always do what they want and meet the demand of its fans, members, staff, and designers. Finding that point is a hit or miss and just because a corps doesn't do something you like doesnt' mean they want to destroy drum corps, or ruin it, or anything like that. It just means they tried something and it didn't work out. Okay, maybe next year. It's illogical to think "drum corps" will ever Look like Tarpon Springs. Last time I checked there were top BOA bands that didn't have synths or props.... and played some great music and did some great visuals... Maybe nobody likes to point out that NOT EVERY BOA BAND IS LIKE TARPON SPRINGS!!! You always have one band/ corps that likes to experiment and that AWESOME! but you also have corps/ band like AVON who (yes used synth) but didn't do all the other unique stuff we saw from Tarpon Springs. They did a show that was... (for all intents and purposes) a traditional marching band show. Great music, design, nothing "out there" just great, playing, spinning, and drumming. If BOA can teach us anything its that even if bands like Tarpon Springs can do cutting edge things like that it does not discourage or deter other marching bands from doing things the "traditional" way and still be extremely effective. (Tarpoon Springs came in 4th btw and Avon came in 1st) Edited January 3, 2011 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Originally how crappy and cheezy amplified voice sounds in a supposedly instrumental drum corps show. In your very humble opinion of course.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) In response to charlie1223's last two posts earlier this morning: I suppose the powers that be can change DCI into whatever they want. But let's try to remember that DCI would never have existed (much less changed drum corps into what we have today) without the financial foundation provided by fan revenue. If you want the esteem of music educators at the expense of the audience that DCI currently enjoys, you would be best advised to have a plan for how to underwrite (or eliminate) the tremendous costs of creating, equipping, operating and moving DCI corps all over the country. Don't have that yet? Then you'd better keep the fans in mind. You mentioned attendance. Attendance has been on a downtrend since 2004. Those who care to look deeper than at just one show (finals) are aware of this. And I think it's safe to say that amplified pit is not the solution to that problem. Edited January 3, 2011 by audiodb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 That said, I was in the pit for 5 years and I can definitely say that we were banging away relative to how they can play now. The pit amplification has allowed them to play at much more controlled volumes, yes. But, more than that it protects the instruments themselves. We routinely cracked bars in marimbas and it was from no other reason than we were beating the dog snot out them all day every day. Oh, yes....because rosewood is impervious to the sun, rain, heat, humidity and handling of a drum corps summer tour, as long as the performers just don't strike the bars quite as hard. (/sarcasm) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) Hey hello?! Wake up! this is drum corps we are talking about. It's art and competition combined. This isn't a political system or economic structure. This is ART. You can't compare the two! People can have a million ####### opinions about ART and it won't hurt anyone a #### bit. your comparison is insane and ridiculous. Saying that I think drum corps can involve electronics, voice, synths, woodwinds etc. does not destroy what drum corps is. Heck, the thing we had 20 - 30 years ago was not drum and bugle corps as it was in the 19th and 20th centuries. Maybe that can be considered changing the meaning of words and all the other stuff you're talking. Oh my god! Interesting...so you must think a sculpture and a painting are the same thing as well? Art is rather a general term don't you think? There are many types or "art" that have specific names that have a "meaning". What you or I think or believe is irrelevant. What is meant by certain terms and their definitions is important aka reality. Now, if DCI is a church, and you have to believe their gospel as aboslute truth as a cult or zealot would, I understand what you are trying to convince yourself and others means to you. It's not closed minded to be precise in the use of words. The local word police here on the use of the name 'Bluecoats' should attest to that. Again, if you can produce one iota of proof that Drum Corps is in ANY way unique from Marching Band I'm all ears. Note, this must be TANGIBLE, not "the experience" etc. Something ANYONE inside and outside can point to and say, "Hey, that is not in ANY marching band I have ever seen and it's in every corps!" Edited January 3, 2011 by Mello Dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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