Michael Boo Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 ... Please, someone tell me if it's NOT to attract more fans, what is the purpose for giving legacy fans more entertainment? Especially when GH said legacy fans are not the target audience? ... What did George actually say; I mean what was his actual quote and the context. My mind might be getting fuzzy, but I don't remember when this happened. And if he did state that legacy fans were not the target audience, could it be because to grow an activity or organization typically targets those who are not yet on board? I typically don't get targeted mailings to join an organization of which I'm already a member. Fans who have bought tickets before already get the mailings from DCI and they know about DCI.org. Potential fans are more likely to not know so much about DCI and consequently are targeted to help grow the organization and the activity. Granted, there's a feeling among a certain percentage of fans that feel disenfranchised. How might one suggest they are reached to know that they are vitally important to DCI's viability? Can the minds of some who feel disenfranchised be changed by targeted output from DCI? In short, how do we turn a negative into a positive and keep everyone—legacy and new fans—happy? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 What did George actually say; I mean what was his actual quote and the context. My mind might be getting fuzzy, but I don't remember when this happened. And if he did state that legacy fans were not the target audience, could it be because to grow an activity or organization typically targets those who are not yet on board? I typically don't get targeted mailings to join an organization of which I'm already a member. Fans who have bought tickets before already get the mailings from DCI and they know about DCI.org. Potential fans are more likely to not know so much about DCI and consequently are targeted to help grow the organization and the activity. Granted, there's a feeling among a certain percentage of fans that feel disenfranchised. How might one suggest they are reached to know that they are vitally important to DCI's viability? Can the minds of some who feel disenfranchised be changed by targeted output from DCI? In short, how do we turn a negative into a positive and keep everyone—legacy and new fans—happy? Here's the quote from the rules proposal, Mike: Yesterday --- The Classic Audience of 1975 that continues to dominate some of today’s conversation will not like this. These people want drum corps the way they remember it and I am very appreciative of this thought process. I too like drum corps as it was and is, but I am also aware that something needs to change. This addition would change that product. The problem in catering to these people --- they are a diminishing group in terms of numbers. Personally, I love them, I want to make them leap from their seats, but for the sake of tomorrow, and we cannot use this class of people only as the opinion makers for our performing groups. RAMD will not care for this idea. Some Alumni will not care for this idea. Some fans will threaten their support and curse any action. We need to move on in the face of vocal disagreement. It is our responsibility to create a tomorrow for the kids who want to be a part of this activity. We need to do what we believe to be right, we need to hold to the values of creativity that made drum corps what it is today. Equal shares of tradition and innovation, this is the key. It's pretty clear from this (and other statements from the "Audience Impact" portion of the proposal that the legacy fans are not the target; in fact, he admits here that much of the legacy fan base will disapprove of the proposal and they must push on in the face of this disapproval. The point of the question is simply this: If the point of A&E is NOT to attract new fans, what is the point? "Why?" And do notice his last sentence here: "Equal shares of tradition and innovation, this is the key." I don't contend that he plans to ignore the legacy fans but, rather, that A&E is not directed at them and is meant to attract new fans. Some here say it's for "creativity" sake (no, it's not), some say because it's evolving "art" (no, it's not). By his own words A&E is designed to pander to the NEW fans - kids in the marching band world who view drum corps as "rock stars" of marching band. (This is a contradiction IMO, if the marching band kids already view DC as the "rock stars of marching band" why change the product in an attempt to attract them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrillmanSop06 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Here's the quote from the rules proposal, Mike: Yesterday --- The Classic Audience of 1975 that continues to dominate some of today’s conversation will not like this. These people want drum corps the way they remember it and I am very appreciative of this thought process. I too like drum corps as it was and is, but I am also aware that something needs to change. This addition would change that product. The problem in catering to these people --- they are a diminishing group in terms of numbers. Personally, I love them, I want to make them leap from their seats, but for the sake of tomorrow, and we cannot use this class of people only as the opinion makers for our performing groups. RAMD will not care for this idea. Some Alumni will not care for this idea. Some fans will threaten their support and curse any action. We need to move on in the face of vocal disagreement. It is our responsibility to create a tomorrow for the kids who want to be a part of this activity. We need to do what we believe to be right, we need to hold to the values of creativity that made drum corps what it is today. Equal shares of tradition and innovation, this is the key. It's pretty clear from this (and other statements from the "Audience Impact" portion of the proposal that the legacy fans are not the target; in fact, he admits here that much of the legacy fan base will disapprove of the proposal and they must push on in the face of this disapproval. The point of the question is simply this: If the point of A&E is NOT to attract new fans, what is the point? "Why?" And do notice his last sentence here: "Equal shares of tradition and innovation, this is the key." I don't contend that he plans to ignore the legacy fans but, rather, that A&E is not directed at them and is meant to attract new fans. Some here say it's for "creativity" sake (no, it's not), some say because it's evolving "art" (no, it's not). By his own words A&E is designed to pander to the NEW fans - kids in the marching band world who view drum corps as "rock stars" of marching band. (This is a contradiction IMO, if the marching band kids already view DC as the "rock stars of marching band" why change the product in an attempt to attract them? Let's not think so micro-level. NO ONE (aside from perhaps the handful of pianists who have auditioned for synthesizer positions in the pit) made their decision to march hinge on A&E. NO ONE except those individuals for whom opportunities were created (arguably a good thing). A&E was a choice for the design teams so they could keep up with the trends that had started YEARS ago in other arenas. Because those arenas are favorable and FAMILIAR to today's participants, it makes sense to adjust the instrumentation to cater to the members who will be auditioning. It keeps things relevant and lets the designers have much more freedom (arguably a bad thing). However, no one is using A&E specifically to target new members. The members who were going to audition were going to audition anyway (except those key individuals). This change was for designers to mirror current trends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) Let's not think so micro-level. NO ONE (aside from perhaps the handful of pianists who have auditioned for synthesizer positions in the pit) made their decision to march hinge on A&E. NO ONE except those individuals for whom opportunities were created (arguably a good thing). A&E was a choice for the design teams so they could keep up with the trends that had started YEARS ago in other arenas. Because those arenas are favorable and FAMILIAR to today's participants, it makes sense to adjust the instrumentation to cater to the members who will be auditioning. It keeps things relevant and lets the designers have much more freedom (arguably a bad thing). However, no one is using A&E specifically to target new members. The members who were going to audition were going to audition anyway (except those key individuals). This change was for designers to mirror current trends. I remember some of the discussions and IIRC, there was a concern that some corps were having (or would soon have?) trouble filling their ranks. And this was before the number went to 150 so maybe that was part of it behind the scenes. Also a concern the interest in DC was going down in people eligible to march DCI. So idea was (forget if said out loud or assumed) if DC had the same "tools" as MB then the younger folks would either be more interested or more comfortible with DC since it was more like MB. Way I read it, the idea that "MB has more members and audience than DC they must be doing it right" was in the back of a lot of minds. The target audience thru all of this discussion was the potential members.... period. Edited January 5, 2011 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerriTroop Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 i don't like electronics or amped singing, either. lots of people who love dci do, though. I really would like to see some actual study of this on DCI's part. Lots of people who love DCI/drum corps will tolerate such things right now because they as fans are still on the fence, or they get most of what they really enjoy from enough other corps right now. But really: they love it? Lots of them? The trend I have seen on DCP at least seems to be something akin to this: Lots of people tolerate it A few people enjoy it Many others really don't enjoy it at all So, maybe it's time for a DCP poll as a start! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrillmanSop06 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I remember some of the discussions and IIRC, there was a concern that some corps were having (or would soon have?) trouble filling their ranks. And this was before the number went to 150 so maybe that was part of it behind the scenes. Also a concern the interest in DC was going down in people eligible to march DCI. So idea was (forget if said out loud or assumed) if DC had the same "tools" as MB then the younger folks would either be more interested or more comfortible with DC since it was more like MB. Way I read it, the idea that "MB has more members and audience than DC they must be doing it right" was in the back of a lot of minds. The target audience thru all of this discussion was the potential members.... period. Corps created, at most, two unique openings per organization. Designers wanted the sounds accessible in marching band and WGI, leaders in this activity. As a direct result, the product would mirror more closely the product surrounding potential participants on a more regular basis (fall and winter). I would say that this could indirectly contribute to recruitment; I don't think kids today would want to take huge steps backwards by marching in drum corps as it existed in the 70s, for instance. The high-energy product of today would have still attracted kids WITHOUT A&E but this begs the question...Why not? Potential members are surrounded by it and design teams wanted it. The only people who lose are those who feel a synthesizer and an amp are killing one of the greatest educational and entertaining activities in the world today. And NO marching member probably feels as though A&E isn't letting them shine as human beings like so many anti-A&E people like to claim. Almost guaranteed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerriTroop Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Competitive marching bands have been moving closer and closer to drum corps -- not the other way around. *Thats's* the reason they're so similar now. And the things that make drum corps unique (the excellence, the touring, the experience) remain unique to drum corps. Instrumentation has always been evolving. Design has always been evolving. Finally I'd just like to point out that marching bands did not invent amplification or electronic instruments nor were they the first to use them in an outdoor football stadium :-) Some other jokers did.... Marching bands adopted the tech. So did drum corps. For similar reasons. So let's get off this A&E is so "marching band" kick. In terms of show concept, visual design and musical excellence, your first point is true. In terms of electronics, bands have been in that realm far, far longer than drum corps. In this regard, drum corps is moving toward being marching band. I think this is why people get on the A&E is "so marching band" kick. And I'm one of them. The point has been argued to death, but once again I'll iterate my own opinion: when designers can create a musical image for me through acoustic means, I'm FLOORED. When they do it via the push of a button and a mic, I'm not. I think it would be great if the judging criteria would give greater weight to corps who do more with less. In other words, when a designer makes a helicopter sound with free standing bass drum heads, that's innovation and creativity. When a designer does it with a sound patch, it's not. If a couple of years ago Blue Knights had made windy/cold sounds via an acoustic device/effect, that would have been a design plus. And had they been attempting that show before synths, their designers would have been forced to come up with a way to do it. That's the kind of innovation that drives me and many, many other drum corps fans to a happier place. Troopers made a train-entering-the-station sound with wire brushes and timpani with the help of amplification. That worked for me. Amped pit has been useful. Synths have been a design crutch. So, what made drum corps unique for so long was the avoidance of electronic sounds via synths (and any other electronic instrument). We should stop denying that part of it. Remove the synths and you force design toward the creative thinking that drove drum corps GE to new heights for years and years. That's what I would love to see happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 When designers can create a musical image for me through acoustic means, I'm FLOORED. When they do it via the push of a button and a mic, I'm not. LOL as it sounds like my thoughts. Being in a small Sr corps circuit I saw a bunch of corps that were really unbalanced in terms of number of percussion vs number of horn or (more likely) unbalanced horn voices. Then the members had to try to settle the balance issues by natural means. Currently if the pit is not balanced with the corps the amp volume can be tweeked. Still think if field horn mics were possible/affordable there would be a DCI proposal to use them. Then the members wouldn't have to worry as much with balance. I am impressed by any member of a corps and what they do, but keep thinking about that "Easy" button in the Office Supply(?) commercial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I really would like to see some actual study of this on DCI's part. Lots of people who love DCI/drum corps will tolerate such things right now because they as fans are still on the fence, or they get most of what they really enjoy from enough other corps right now. But really: they love it? Lots of them? The trend I have seen on DCP at least seems to be something akin to this: Lots of people tolerate it A few people enjoy it Many others really don't enjoy it at all So, maybe it's time for a DCP poll as a start! A few people that post a LOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 A few people that post a LOT. Well I can't see people who have lost all interest in DC posting at all.... Mark me as one who cares about the Jr corps activity but doesn't care enough about the shows to go watch one..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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