JimF-LowBari Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Your guard and perc comments are effect comments. The brass comments show that the book can be the same with a small corps as a large corps. There are only so many ways to split the book (let's say 3 sop, 3 mello, 3 baris and 2 tuba) before it gets distorted (yes, certian sections can split more, but not sure about 30 independent parts for 60 players...). Give each part 2 people each (to cover breathing) and your horn line is 22 players. In fact, the smaller corps may even be better because there is no place to "hide" weaker players or just have them moving fingers during technical passages (I've marched in both large and small so have personal experience of each of these happening). The brass, guard and percussion sheets are WHAT is happening and HOW are they doing it. Clean is clean, whether it's 2 people playing it or 22. How IMPRESSIVE that cleanliness is falls (or should fall) into effect. Correct, I've only been talking about Effect as to me that's all that's being judged anymore. Back in my day cleaniness carried more weight because we had the Execution scores (tics). From what I can tell (still don't get the current sytem) judges are still judging effect even when they look at the cleanliness of the show. IOW - cleanliness only hurts the effect score when it's so bad you can really notice. I've seen winning shows lately that had "tickable" errors but the rest of the show made up for the individual errors. Unlike my days where those tics could have changed placings..... To be honest, I have no idea how cleanliness would go in the current sheets. Or if there is anything in the rules about being able to pick out errors easier (like less horns). Edit: Just read your last post. Don't know if loud goes into the judging numbers. But I'd say if you want more quality in the sheets, bring back some form of the tic system and penalize errors. Edit #2 - someone took exception to this???? Honestly... try to have a conversation and someone twists my words and gets their undies in a wad. Sorry I ####### tried to learn something.... Edited July 23, 2011 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDz Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 You raise a good point. I guess I did not elaborate that not only do the corps have too be full, they have to be of a quality level that is better than the average band (which BTW has gotten a lot better in the last 20 years). I do think that a larger corps has more of a visual impact, especially if they have a good designer. <snip> I agree 100% ! Quantity + Quality or Quality....YES; Quantity alone will not do it....and obviously neither will small and "weak." Star United can appear on the field in the same configuration that they do at Finals and "look" good at ANY show. They bring down the house because they are GREAT. Joe Dz in NJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Correct, I've only been talking about Effect as to me that's all that's being judged anymore. Back in my day cleaniness carried more weight because we had the Execution scores (tics). From what I can tell (still don't get the current sytem) judges are still judging effect even when they look at the cleanliness of the show. IOW - cleanliness only hurts the effect score when it's so bad you can really notice. I've seen winning shows lately that had "tickable" errors but the rest of the show made up for the individual errors. Unlike my days where those tics could have changed placings..... To be honest, I have no idea how cleanliness would go in the current sheets. Or if there is anything in the rules about being able to pick out errors easier (like less horns). Edit: Just read your last post. Don't know if loud goes into the judging numbers. But I'd say if you want more quality in the sheets, bring back some form of the tic system and penalize errors. OMG nO!!!!! the tic system was horrible and just as subjective as it is now if not worse.....mistakes do play into the system now in the sub captions but as far as effect an effect can be destroyed if execution is bad BUT it can also not be by a minor error. AS far as music..effect is a caption so effect is all over in every caption Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Correct, I've only been talking about Effect as to me that's all that's being judged anymore. Back in my day cleaniness carried more weight because we had the Execution scores (tics). Cleanliness carried more weight then because that's *all* that was judged in performance captions. The content itself was never, ever considered. That's why no corps ever took any risks (especially visually), marched difficult drill, or marched at anything other than a comfortable cruising speed with average sized steps. Today's corps have more drill pages in their openers than corps had in their entire show all those years ago. Even from a musical standpoint shows are far more demanding (especially when you factor in staging and horizontal/vertical alignment). Any one of today's Open class corps could take one of those shows from the tic era, learn in on a Saturday and clean it on a Sunday. Seriously. To be honest, I have no idea how cleanliness would go in the current sheets. Or if there is anything in the rules about being able to pick out errors easier (like less horns). Today, cleanliness is all based on derived achievement. First you consider what is being done (musically or visually), what else is happening at the time (simultaneous responsibility), and to what extent the attempted content is achieved. That's why you cannot simply perform a ridiculously easy show to perfection and expect to beat a corps that attempts far more difficult content and achieves it well (though not perfect). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 OMG nO!!!!! the tic system was horrible and just as subjective as it is now if not worse.....mistakes do play into the system now in the sub captions but as far as effect an effect can be destroyed if execution is bad BUT it can also not be by a minor error. AS far as music..effect is a caption so effect is all over in every caption LOL..... I marched in DCA and RCA and you could march the same level of show and get vastly different scores in execution. Or as one of our DI would say "It's a DCA show this week.... execute #### it EXECUTE". I wouldn't want to go back to the ticky ticky bitty but seems it's gone way over to the effect side of the equation. Kinda like the opposite of when AL wanted judging to be almost all execution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Cleanliness carried more weight then because that's *all* that was judged in performance captions. The content itself was never, ever considered. That's why no corps ever took any risks (especially visually), marched difficult drill, or marched at anything other than a comfortable cruising speed with average sized steps. Today's corps have more drill pages in their openers than corps had in their entire show all those years ago. Even from a musical standpoint shows are far more demanding (especially when you factor in staging and horizontal/vertical alignment). Time out... General Effect covered complexity of what was being done like I think it is being done today. As one instructor told us "It's to tell you how hard is what you are doing and how well you are doing it".IOW it wasn't all "X" being judged. Agree that todays drill is more involved but what you wrote about in my day is not true to the point of being insulting. Sounds like all we did was squads marching back and forth.... Also checked fromthepressbox for recaps and 1980 DCA started the Brass Content/Brass Analysis captions. Thought that started during my time. Any one of today's Open class corps could take one of those shows from the tic era, learn in on a Saturday and clean it on a Sunday. Seriously. And the point is? Honestly you make it sound like I'm making this a "My era was better" deal and I NEVER said that. Today, cleanliness is all based on derived achievement. First you consider what is being done (musically or visually), what else is happening at the time (simultaneous responsibility), and to what extent the attempted content is achieved. That's why you cannot simply perform a ridiculously easy show to perfection and expect to beat a corps that attempts far more difficult content and achieves it well (though not perfect). Is that the answer to DCA1fans question concerning Open vs Class A scores? I tried and first was told I was only talking about effect. TThen I asked a question and appears I'm a fan of going back to tics (not true). So I give up... Edited July 23, 2011 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Cleanliness carried more weight then because that's *all* that was judged in performance captions. The content itself was never, ever considered. That's why no corps ever took any risks (especially visually), marched difficult drill, or marched at anything other than a comfortable cruising speed with average sized steps. John, I will disagree with that. My years in Sunrisers... during the tick-system era... we most definitely went out on a limb with our visual program at various times... sometimes too much, IMO... including high-speed drill for most of our main percussion feature in 1977 (Dance of the Wind-Up Toy). And our brass and percussion charts weren't exactly "Come to Jesus" in whole notes. LOL. They were very challenging... and I think they have stood the test of time. I'm sure we were not the only example of a "corps taking risks" during the tick-system era. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBD Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 The 35 member rule is a hardship on some corps, but DCA is in the business of organizing Exciting & Entertaining Drum Corps shows. There's a reasonable expectation from the show sponsors that the corps have 35+ people on the field. They have to shell out $15-20K to run a show pretty much at there own risk. If the corps are all smaller and not noticably better than the local band (in many people's eyes this=BIGGER), then why would the locals at Lewisburg or Wayne, etc keep coming to the show at $10-$25 a ticket? The show has to be a spectacle! Yes, this is hard for some corps to achieve, but that's what makes it drum corps. All the rules should steer corps toward eventually becoming full sized drum corps that will knock the socks off of audiences at every show. Mini-corps and even Class A should be stepping stones in that direction, IMHO. You want to talk about Helath of the Activity? Let's have 16-20 Open Class Corps of 100+ members and 6-10 Class A Corps of 50+ members at Annapolis in 2012. That would be peas & carrots healthy! Now (RIGHT NOW!)is the time for each corps to develop and execute a plan to make that happen. If a corps hasn't been able to make this happen for a few years, then do something different. Bring in fresh blood at the planning table. Take an honest look at your organizational structure. Maybe it's you? This will come across as harsh to some, but I believe it to be true. I've read a hundred times about how the Buccaneers have taken the fun out of things. Well, you know what? Steal from them! Run the corps the way they do and see if things don't improve. I can remember seeing the Bucs with 20 horns and not making finals in the 90's. Look at them now. I don't think it's magic. It's strong commitment to a sound plan. Well said! Jay The guy who wrote the 35 member rule Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) My years in Sunrisers... during the tick-system era... we most definitely went out on a limb with our visual program at various times... sometimes too much, IMO... including high-speed drill for most of our main percussion feature in 1977 (Dance of the Wind-Up Toy). Still get nightmares about Westshores 1979 drum feature of "Sing Sing Sing". Lot of weird crossing #### on either side of the field then both halves marching full speed to meet at the 50. Not facing each other, you had the entire horn line on the 50 with every other member facing the other way. Not THAT bad in practice but try to find the ONE opening (mine between Cathy and Terry) when everyone is in uni and looks same until a few steps away. More than a few collisions at practice including my once... Then we had that monsoon show at Brick, NJ(?) late season on a wet field.... Ah Hell, now someone will say I'm insulting todays corsp by saying something nice about the past.... Edited July 23, 2011 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffBanyots Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Any one of today's Open class corps could take one of those shows from the tic era, learn in on a Saturday and clean it on a Sunday. Seriously. I have no doubt that is true. However, every time I think about the visual and musical demands of a modern corps being higher than the old days, I remember this... HIGH MARK TIME. ____________________________________________ I have added this edit for posterity on July 24, 2011. My post is only in reference to the visual program. I believe that modern corps could learn the vis book from BITD in a weekend and clean it quickly. Music on the other hand still takes time to learn and clean. Edited July 25, 2011 by JeffBanyots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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