corpsband Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I have never witnessed a front ensemble completely obliterated by the musicians behind them. Sure if you include cymbal rolls as a FE contribution. OK, then. Everyone who only likes percussion when it is mobile, please respond here. I won't be holding my breath.... I don't think anyone will claim that the pit used to disappear in ballads. Yet that's where they are being amplified the most. There are plenty of people who's primary focus is the battery (or the brass or the guard or the pit). And I'm not sure (a) where I mentioned ballads or (b) that ballads have the highest amplification levels. Citations please :-) Amazing -- three separate quotes and you *still* managed to avoid responding to the main point of my post. Oh well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I have never witnessed a front ensemble completely obliterated by the musicians behind them. Then you haven't been listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommytimp Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Everybody shut up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 One of my favorite moments of recent shows was '09 Blue Stars, where the pit stops playing so that we can all hear the backfield brass swells. I'll bet there are other '09-'10 WC brass lines doing similarly sensitive dynamic work, but wish me luck finding them....because you can't hear it in the lower deck seats, or from where the recording mics are set up. We can hear all ten four-mallet-wielding keyboards, though....or, at least, their amplified alter-egos. Yes. In my experience, the coloration of sound moving off-axis from a PA speaker is more dramatic than with a brass instrument. Perhaps not all speakers are equal in that regard, but a speaker is certainly a directional device. I still remember being at a show once where the announcer was using a PA speaker somewhat similar to what DCI pits are now using. Standing 10 yards in front of it was way over my pain threshold....but moving to 10 yards alongside it, I couldn't make out the score announcements. I heard enough bass to prove something was being said, but the words were unintelligible until I moved back to a moderate angle. As you move farther off the speaker's axis, higher frequencies attenuate more than lower frequencies, degrading the resulting sound. I particularly like your point about sensitive dynamic work being covered up, because that's exactly what has happened to front ensembles for years until the amplification rule came into effect. So again, there's a double standard. I'm not saying that its perfect, obviously there are things we can make better, but amplification was and is a change for the better. So you had an experience where you had trouble hearing a crappy speaker. Good for you. Doesn't change the fact that the PA speakers most corps are using are a) nowhere near as directional as a brass instrument, and b) set up in an attempt to maximize the spread of the sound throughout the stadium. The fact is, sitting in the first 15 rows and getting a lot of sound from the PA, while also being closer to the brass is no worse a balance issue than sitting 100 rows back 10 years ago and not being able to hear the front ensemble at all. I think the issue we're running into here, is a difference of opinion on what the roles of each section should be. The front ensemble has always been the housewife of the group, to be seen and not heard. Its been that way for years. Now all of a sudden, they have the opportunity to be an equal partner in the music, and people who are more brass or battery focused can't take it. Again, amplification is not perfect, but we are closer to an actual balance now than we were before it. That's a fact. If you thought corps were in balance before amplification, then you aren't interested in hearing the "sensitive dynamic work" that front ensembles are capable of. There is much more to it than playing at or above forte for 10 minutes, in unison just to be heard at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 So you had an experience where you had trouble hearing a crappy speaker. Good for you. Doesn't change the fact that the PA speakers most corps are using are a) nowhere near as directional as a brass instrument, and b) set up in an attempt to maximize the spread of the sound throughout the stadium. And I have a bridge I'd like you to invest in. It's in Brooklyn.... Many corps take two speakers, plant them on each 40 yard line, and aim them at the press box. That setup is clearly not "an attempt to maximize the spread of the sound throughout the stadium"....far from it. Rarely do I ever see a corps distribute speakers any wider than that, even though: - several corps have a half-dozen or more speakers - the rules extend the pit area the full width of the field - corps routinely violate the boundary rules with their speaker setups, without penalty The fact is, sitting in the first 15 rows and getting a lot of sound from the PA, while also being closer to the brass is no worse a balance issue than sitting 100 rows back 10 years ago and not being able to hear the front ensemble at all. Except that unlike you, I could still hear the front ensemble from row 100. I think the issue we're running into here, is a difference of opinion on what the roles of each section should be. The front ensemble has always been the housewife of the group, to be seen and not heard. I thought the cliche was that children should be seen and not heard. Geez, we can't agree on anything! Its been that way for years. Now all of a sudden, they have the opportunity to be an equal partner in the music, and people who are more brass or battery focused can't take it. Again, amplification is not perfect, but we are closer to an actual balance now than we were before it. I guess I should ask, just in case....which direction do you think the imbalance favors? Do you think we need more amplification to reach your idea of balance? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 i love the people on an internet drum corps forum bashing internet drum corps forums. winning It's amazing, some here only post to B*(complain) about people that have a different view than their own..or in their narrow concept or reality B*(complaining). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) And I have a bridge I'd like you to invest in. It's in Brooklyn.... Many corps take two speakers, plant them on each 40 yard line, and aim them at the press box. That setup is clearly not "an attempt to maximize the spread of the sound throughout the stadium"....far from it. Rarely do I ever see a corps distribute speakers any wider than that, even though: - several corps have a half-dozen or more speakers - the rules extend the pit area the full width of the field - corps routinely violate the boundary rules with their speaker setups, without penalty I don't know if corps have that many speakers... But I think it is an interesting idea to line the football field with speakers and then pan the sound of the pit across the front sideline depending on where the majority of sound from the corps is being made. So if the corps is on the 10 yard line the speakers down there will be where the pit's sounds come from. This is an idea worth looking into so that the sound doesn't have to "blasting" in just 2 speakers for it be heard appropriately across the entire venue. Edited March 23, 2011 by charlie1223 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I don't know if corps have that many speakers... But I think it is an interesting idea to line the football field with speakers and then pan the sound of the pit across the front sideline depending on where the majority of sound from the corps is being made. So if the corps is on the 10 yard line the speakers down there will be where the pit's sounds come from. This is an idea worth looking into so that the sound doesn't have to "blasting" in just 2 speakers for it be heard appropriately across the entire venue. I would suggest moving the pit to the BACK of the field and put the speakers there. Talk about having Dr Beat all ready to go and alleviate the dutting and being able to balance a TON easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I don't know if corps have that many speakers... But I think it is an interesting idea to line the football field with speakers and then pan the sound of the pit across the front sideline depending on where the majority of sound from the corps is being made. So if the corps is on the 10 yard line the speakers down there will be where the pit's sounds come from. This is an idea worth looking into so that the sound doesn't have to "blasting" in just 2 speakers for it be heard appropriately across the entire venue. Cool idea -- timing nightmare! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I would suggest moving the pit to the BACK of the field and put the speakers there. Talk about having Dr Beat all ready to go and alleviate the dutting and being able to balance a TON easier. I think it's worth a shot, why not? I think that's actually what Tarpon Springs HS did this past year at BOA. They definitely had synth, bass guitar and electic drum set guys all the way in the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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