Jeff Ream Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 I would suggest moving the pit to the BACK of the field and put the speakers there. Talk about having Dr Beat all ready to go and alleviate the dutting and being able to balance a TON easier. i mentioned this months ago. Remember when Phantom put the pit out there in 93 and 94? No issues hearing them then. yet no corps has invested in trying this with amps now. incredible 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) the judging community is afraid.,...at all levels...to really nail someone if balance is out of whack. a tenth or 2 isn't sending the real message. The judging community is afraid that they will get pulled from the panel right? Because to them they really want to judge performances and give credit where credit is due and to announce a winner and do their part for DCI and drum corps by being a judge... they want to do it because it they love it. But, you're saying is that in order to do what they love they have to "against" what they love, which is judge fairly, honestly, and with integrity. What I don't see is every world class corps point a gun at the judges head to just "ignore" the balance/blend issues. And I don't see DCI judges cowering at the almighty directors who you make seem are pushing for "mediocratiy in electronics" (since they don't want to be judged harshly). The REAL issue is lack of communication between judges and directors. Neither group has any kind of expectation when it comes to electronics. And if they do, they are by all means not the same expectations, and that's where issues start. The expectations for drumlines for example is pretty much set for both judges and directors, its been around long enough that directors and judge and can "agree" and "accept" what's being judged and how they are judging. I just do not see electronics having that same kind of acceptance. It's just a cloud of ambiguous jargon when it comes to electronic judging and that's what gets judges scared that they will get "cut" from the panel. They don't know the expectations of electronics because they haven't been defined. Communication is what's needed. Luckily we have the judges liaisons this year and Cesario to hopefully open the doors to this communication between the two groups that will hopefully clear up this fuzzy judging cloud. They've taken the control out of the pit, and now up in the stands and you can use whatever device you want to control it. Worst offender last year in Indy? the Bluecoats the night they got caught using their Iphone or Ipad. Well, I don't think 1 instance of using this new device is enough evidence to prove that it doesn't work. Frankly, if they had been using that device for 90 days straight I'm sure the outcome would have been different. I don't think it was smart to experiment like that on Semifinals because technology never works right the first time... :P Edited March 24, 2011 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Go back and listen to those ensembles again. You'll see that the music was written brilliantly within the confines of what was possible.. Any time the brass line was really playing (which, with the Cavaliers brass lines at the time wasn't often), you either didn't hear the front, or they were playing chordal things in unison so that they would be a part of the mix. There was a lot of tradeoff between the brass and the front ensemble, but very little is heard from the front ensemble any time the brass gets above forte. The only things you hear are the metallics (chimes, cymbals, crotales etc) because they cut better than mallet instruments. The fact is, front ensembles have been an afterthought for years. Imagine a trumpet player being told "Here, play these notes extremely well. Work on them all summer long, but nobody will ever hear them because 70 people will be playing over you" That would never happen. Now, you can actually hear the things that these kids are playing, and people are actually upset about it. It makes no sense. Amplification has opened the door for arrangers to write whatever they want, allowing for better music, and more opportunities for the performers to create. Yes, there are balance problems at times, but there are times when brass lines are out of balance. There are times when drum lines over play. The balance issues are not the fault of the amplification. They are the fault of either the design/staff, or the performers. The fact is, there are a ton of examples of shows that would have suffered had amplification not existed, but there are very few examples of shows that were ruined by it. Many good things being said here, but I have to disagree with the last couple of sentences. Actually, I disagree with your Cavaliers brass lines at the time didn't play often comment too, but that's not the focus of the post. There have been tons of shows that were ruined by it in the last several years. I go to less and less shows now because the front ensembles are too loud. I can not get several of my friends to go to shows with me anymore because they say that the pits are too loud. A couple of friends that I get to go make fun of how loud the pits are. So, yea it's been a problem for me and my group of friends. Balance is not there. It's driven fans away... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Truth! How many A&E bashers are upset when the brass/perc completely obliterates the front ensemble? (answer=none) I think much of what's in play here is that many (most?) fans could care less about the FE and are completely focused on the brass or battery. The obliteration of the pit did not trigger a response before A&E because it didn't "intrude" on their experience. But when (god forbid) the front ensemble parts can be heard in a high intensity brass moment, the reaction is quite different! Not only is it intrusion, it's EVIL ! Listening to the new sound takes an active adjustment on the part of the listener -- it is NOT going to sound the same as pre-A&E. IMO many are just unwilling to make that effort (and are content to whine on DCP about how the activity has been destroyed). Different is just...different. The brass and battery have not stopped playing or become inaudible But you can hear the FE in spots where you didn't used to be able to hear them. I'd be perfectly content with just listening to brass. But hearing the pit in moments where they used to disappear is not going to destroy my enjoyment of drum corps. Not from me, I have a problem with the FE obliterating a quiet section because they didn't get quiet to match the rest of the musical ensemble. The blend is completely out of sorts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 I don't know if corps have that many speakers... But I think it is an interesting idea to line the football field with speakers and then pan the sound of the pit across the front sideline depending on where the majority of sound from the corps is being made. So if the corps is on the 10 yard line the speakers down there will be where the pit's sounds come from. This is an idea worth looking into so that the sound doesn't have to "blasting" in just 2 speakers for it be heard appropriately across the entire venue. That would be an interesting idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 I would suggest moving the pit to the BACK of the field and put the speakers there. Now that is interesting. From that position, both the judges and the audience (the whole audience, not just between the 40s) would hear a similar balance/blend. Plus, clearing the front sideline has visual advantages for those in lower seats. There are also logistic advantages to having the pit backfield. It would clear the logjam between the field and the stands for other things (announcer, field judges, audio/video recording, even fan traffic in some venues). Corps could pass in review without being obstructed by the pits of both their own corps and the next corps to perform. And at rear field, there is the potential to speed up the transition from one corps to the next. So what are the disadvantages? OK, that one guy who calls them the "front ensemble" will have to adjust his terminology. Anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) There are also logistic advantages to having the pit backfield. It would clear the logjam between the field and the stands for other things (announcer, field judges, audio/video recording, even fan traffic in some venues). Corps could pass in review without being obstructed by the pits of both their own corps and the next corps to perform. And at rear field, there is the potential to speed up the transition from one corps to the next. Are there any venues where the people in the lowest seats are looking thru the pit to watch the rest of the corps? Visions of Danville, PA DCA Memorial Day Weekend exhibition show. People in the bottom row had their feet on the edge of the track that ran around the football field (and people in rows 2-3 had their heads level with the bells of the horn line ). Edited March 24, 2011 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 i mentioned this months ago. Remember when Phantom put the pit out there in 93 and 94? No issues hearing them then. yet no corps has invested in trying this with amps now. incredible Not really incredible if you understand acoustic physics. There is a reason why this is very rarely done in drum corps (and marching band, for that matter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) Now that is interesting. From that position, both the judges and the audience (the whole audience, not just between the 40s) would hear a similar balance/blend. Plus, clearing the front sideline has visual advantages for those in lower seats. There are also logistic advantages to having the pit backfield. It would clear the logjam between the field and the stands for other things (announcer, field judges, audio/video recording, even fan traffic in some venues). Corps could pass in review without being obstructed by the pits of both their own corps and the next corps to perform. And at rear field, there is the potential to speed up the transition from one corps to the next. So what are the disadvantages? OK, that one guy who calls them the "front ensemble" will have to adjust his terminology. Anything else? not disadvantages but that means if the pit is in the back that they will essentially be the time keepers and NOT the drum-line (which will presumably be in front of them marching). Also, depending on how far back they are it could impede some of the space where the corps could be marching drill (only because I think that if the pit is going to be all the way on the back sideline that could be too far, so they'd have to be somewhere on the field). I think that such a change would require a different mentality for percussion writing in the pit and the battery. It's actually a huge shift. The pit now just follows the time, but with this shift they will create time and that involves a different approach entirely, which could be scary for a lot of corps and arrangers who do their own thing because it "works". Edited March 24, 2011 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 That would be an interesting idea. yes but as corpsband mentioned before, there could be some timing issue with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.