Almost 40 years of changes at DCI, what do you think are the best 3

[actucker]

Of course. Mallets, tymps and other such instruments have had moments of focus since they were first used on the field, many years before there even was a "pit". That is nothing new.

Yes.

But the premise of amplification has always been that the pit (or a more specific subsection of the pit) needs to be audible at the top of the upper deck even when they are in a supporting role. Yet, you are OK with the brass being inaudible when they are in a supporting role? That is inconsistent.

No, the premise of amplification is that the the front ensembles had to arrange a certain way so that they are not inaudible for most of the show. Now they are no longer confined by that need. And everyone is overplaying the brass being "inaudible". I have yet to see an example of that happening. Not once has the brass line been completely covered up in the same way that the front ensemble used to be on a regular basis.

[The Other Mike]

Good

the Pit

air condition buses

3 valves

Bad

Hopkins

any electronics

Bb

< siren sounds >

Flame Shields Raised

[Mello Dude]

So we've established, that if your'e adding +10db to the sound, that same 10db will be present at every dynamic. Obviously this establishes a floor. However, as I've already established, your attempting to balance 12 (at most) non directional instruments made of wood or metal and struck with yarn or chord covered mallets with 60+ directional brass instruments which also have the advantage of sustainable sound (all mallet instruments suffer from a decay which starts immediately after the attack which makes tones less competitive sonically over the course of time).

So with those disadvantages well documented, we can fairly establish that if the front ensemble plays piano, and the brass all play at piano, you won't have a balanced ensemble. You will have a lot of trouble hearing the front ensemble at all. Now, if you add those 10db, and with that added boost, now the front ensemble is part of the mix, then you have room to play with dynamics in any direction.

And for the record, just to make sure we're clear here, are you actually suggesting that the front ensemble was covering up the hornline before amplification with your comment about horn positions compensating? If so, then clearly you have no interest in actually having balance. All you want to hear is brass, and this conversation is over.

I mean wow..this conversation is over? Really? Actually, my contention is that I want to hear the brass when it's supposed to be heard with an appropriate pit section that ISN'T COVERING UP OR DESTROYING THE ARTISTIC INTENT OF THE MUSIC BECAUSE IT'S LOUD AND LOUDER.

If that cannot be achieved then YES I would like the amps taken off the pit because apparently BEFORE amplification the rest of the corps compensated for the pit by either playing softer, facing the back (or elsewhere) or not playing at all or simply field placement.

To YOUR point: if your point is to constantly hear the pit playing unmusically to the REST of the corp all the time..then this conversation is over.

[actucker]

I mean wow..this conversation is over? Really? Actually, my contention is that I want to hear the brass when it's supposed to be heard with an appropriate pit section that ISN'T COVERING UP OR DESTROYING THE ARTISTIC INTENT OF THE MUSIC BECAUSE IT'S LOUD AND LOUDER.

If that cannot be achieved then YES I would like the amps taken off the pit because apparently BEFORE amplification the rest of the corps compensated for the pit by either playing softer, facing the back (or elsewhere) or not playing at all or simply field placement.

To YOUR point: if your point is to constantly hear the pit playing unmusically to the REST of the corp all the time..then this conversation is over.

Alright. Then how much do you think the front ensemble should be in the mix. Do you think they should be equal to a section or the brass line? What about a third of the musical ensemble (equal partnership between brass battery and FE)? Perhaps that's where the disagreement is.

And I'll take that example of the front covering up the brass line any time now. Still haven't seen it.

[audiodb]

As for setting levels, yes, that is something that the staff is responsible for, however, if the balance is correct in a full ensemble forte section of the show, then it would stand to reason that if all players adjust their dynamics in lower volume sections, the balance should remain intact.

No, it's not quite that simple. The sound board operator is making adjustments as the show is in progress.

The fact is, we play outdoors. There are going to be balance issues. Yes, changing venues does in fact drastically change the acoustic setting, and can change the balance drastically. It was the same way before amplification.

No, it wasn't. The amplified sound is the only component of drum corps that varies so dramatically from venue to venue.

If you think balance was better before amplification, then you are disregarding an entire section of the corps.

Not in my case.

One section completely covering another is out of balance,

You got that part right.

and that was happening just as much, if not more 10 years ago than it is now. If you were to remove the amplification tomorrow, it would still be out of balance, just in the opposite direction. Are there adjustments to be made, sure, but there is one immovable fact involved here. Without amplification, true balance is not possible without losing a true forte from the brass.

No, no and no.

The pit is a collection of a wide variety of instruments. Some of them do not have as wide a dynamic range, or as loud a peak sound, or the same outdoor projection characteristic as others. For whatever reasons, instead of using conventional means such as instrument selection, quantity and/or acoustic techniques to achieve balance, some people have decided that electronic amplification is not just the desired solution, but rather, the necessary one.

I just hope those people really are seeking a solution....a balance.

[charlie1223]

Bad

Hopkins

any electronics

Bb

< siren sounds >

Flame Shields Raised

"I pity the fool!"

[charlie1223]

The pit is a collection of a wide variety of instruments. Some of them do not have as wide a dynamic range, or as loud a peak sound, or the same outdoor projection characteristic as others. For whatever reasons, instead of using conventional means such as instrument selection, quantity and/or acoustic techniques to achieve balance,

So you don't think that current front ensemble arrangers use these techniques? They do.

Edited March 27, 2011 by charlie1223

[audiodb]

This comment from you is very telling. If you don't think brass lines were covering up front ensembles before amplification, then you just don't want to hear the front ensemble, because its not debatable.

Not debatable? How do you know what someone else hears, or from what vantage point they heard it?

Most brass lines, above forte, swallow up the pit no matter what the pit does.

No, brass lines do not swallow up the pit. Never have.

The recordings aren't always great records of that, as the microphones were usually placed near the very front of the field.

Actually, close miking at the front of the field stopped a couple of years before the pit staging area was created. But I understand what you mean....recordings, for a number of reasons, do not necessarily provide the same balance one hears from their seat in the audience.

As for the front ensemble blasting out the brass line, I'll say it again, give me an example when you literally can't hear the brass line.

And I'll say it again....nearly every WC ballad in the past few years.

[charlie1223]

And I'll say it again....nearly every WC ballad in the past few years.

I have had different experiences which prove the opposite.

No, brass lines do not swallow up the pit. Never have.

I have had different experiences which prove the opposite.

Edited March 27, 2011 by charlie1223

[charlie1223]

Actually, my contention is that I want to hear the brass when it's supposed to be heard with an appropriate pit section that ISN'T COVERING UP OR DESTROYING THE ARTISTIC INTENT OF THE MUSIC BECAUSE IT'S LOUD AND LOUDER.

You know, we can't blame the pit for everything... Sometimes corps don't play confidently. In rehearsal they might be at fff for a part of the show, and then come the performance they are playing at mf. THAT HAPPENS. people just don't play on the field cuz they get scared/lost/ or tired... but meanwhile the pit was balanced to a louder dynamic. It's a two way street my friend. You can't blame the pit for all the balance problems that exist in drum corps...

If that cannot be achieved then YES I would like the amps taken off the pit because apparently BEFORE amplification the rest of the corps compensated for the pit by either playing softer, facing the back (or elsewhere) or not playing at all or simply field placement.

Ofcourse it can be achieved! And it HAS been achieved! the problem is will you be willing to accept it when it has been achieved? Your passion may show otherwise.

To YOUR point: if your point is to constantly hear the pit playing unmusically to the REST of the corp all the time..then this conversation is over.

"constantly hear the pit playing unmusically..." your bias is showing! :D

Edited March 27, 2011 by charlie1223