SophumperMMX Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I love this topic but I disagree with most of what your are saying. Drum Corps. has evolved just as all music does. Different demographics and more importantly different judges. All corps want to win, this is a fact, but in order to have the last DM stand up be your DM you HAVE to play to the judges. I marched my first season of drum corps. last year with Carolina Crown and boy did my opinion of the whole sport change. The judging system is broken.....it's built on a tic system and not on achievement or crowd response. Its like: "Oh wow that was clean...more points....instead of oh wow that was pretty ****ing hard!" It bothers me too, but it's where we're at.... That being said from my experience all corps play to the crowd...I don't ever remember hearing my corps talk about what judges thought unless it was to make our show better....quite the contrary...I remember us talking about where those judges could stick those score sheets. Finals week we were just trying to meet our standards and have a pleasing show for everyone to see. So I see where you are coming from, but don't worry too much in to it. Like you said DCI is working on the judging system and it is frustrating...this is coming from someone who marched during the problem. I do see an upswing with crowd pleasing"ness" from the corps today. But, honestly, like everything else it could all change next year and be different the year after that. Like I said...the sport is evolving constantly and corps just have to deal with that if they want to win. <-----DCI Judging System SC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PepsiTwist Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) wow, there's so much to respond to and I'm not sure it'd even be worth it to try to hit everything. I read just about every reply, but I admit that I probably skipped a few lines here and there. okay, first of all, I was a marching member during the 1991 season and I have to say that I thought Star of Indiana was frikkin' PHENOMENAL! My favorite show? Not really. But did I find it "boring"? Ummm, absolutely not! Now, I'd be lying if I said that I didn't hear MANY people talk down about it all season or even today, but that goes for ANY corps, ANY year. People have different tastes, different opinions... we're not in China, ya know?! ;) But let's get off the retreat talk for a second and talk a little about some things that I don't think anyone has touched on yet. My first year of drum corps was 1987 and at the time, LOTS of things were in the middle of changing or, depending on the corps and their finances, about to change in the coming years. We had 2-valve bugles and in the 6 years I marched, there were rules changes and technological advancements that allowed us to gradually move up to the use of 3-valve horns and have the freedom and abilities to do MUCH more with the shows musically. One thing that most people wouldn't know as they take the time to think about it, but if my memory is correct, Star '91 played that show on ALL 2-valve bugles. (please correct me, somebody...) I don't think anyone can dog Star for what they were able to do and how they sounded with what we would now-a-days consider to be "limited". Now - everyone was still on 2-valve at the time, but I think it was 1990 or 91 that allowed corps to begin transitioning to the 3-valve bugles. My noting that Star played on 2-valve and played that show THAT well isn't really the point... just saying that I appreciate the show THAT much more now a days. (I believe Star played on 2-valves only, all the way through 1993.) So, the changes and upgrades to instruments (not just bugles) definitely had some influence on the more modern show designs. How about the abolishment of the "tick" system? Another huge part in ALL of this that has to be considered a factor when discussing the change associated with show designs and concepts in the 1980's to present. It was no longer about perfection... it was about pushing the activity to take risks and be rewarded for achieving a different level of greatness. I was not a member in the 70's and early 80's so I can't say that I know what it was like to watch or be a part of drum corps, but I do think this change was great for the activity. I own a lot of VHS and dvd videos of the 70's and 80's and from what I have seen, although VERY entertaining shows - it's kind of the same shows, year in and year out. I'm not complaining, but where was the "raising of the bar" or the "pushing the envelope" in the activity? I don't know... maybe this is part of what influenced the judging system change? I don't know the history, really. I won't sit here and pretend that I know everything about the judging system or any of the advancements in the past 30 years, but there has to be at least SOME consideration to this changeover in judging philosophy when talking about how the activity has evolved since 1980. One thing I've noticed a lot in the past few years in Hollywood is that we're in an era where we're seeing many movie remakes or rehashes. Almost to a point where it seems as if no-one can think of anything new and fresh. It's as if they have to make a movie just for the sake of making one. And many of them are bad or worse than the original, in my opinion. Well, I'm 40 now... not the oldest member on these forums by far, but when I talk to my wife, friends or some of my colleagues at work (younger or older) about some of these movies - something more of the general public can relate to than drum corps - it is always mixed when it comes to what was better... the original or the remake. Most younger people never even knew that these movies they are watching and enjoying are remakes. I love movies and my wife and I have movie dates at least once every 2 weeks... we do enjoy movies for what they are today, but we sometimes wish movies would be what they used to be. What do I mean by that? Well, specifically it's really up to the viewer. We're all very different and I know people who are my age and older who actually prefer CGI-flooded movies over actual acting. Why? I don't know. :) But my point is, when it comes to drum corps, it's more or less the same. I think the point I was eventually getting to had to do with thinking - what if movies went back to the way they were in the 60's and 70's and 80's? ...those movies that I personally love and adore. I know I'd enjoy them and any unknown number of people would as well. But you'd definitely lose a LOT of people along the way also. It's kind of a double-edged sword, in a way. You can't ever please everyone. If drum corps decided to try to go back to the way it was and change things up to design shows around what it was back in those days... well, you and I may enjoy them but would the majority of today's drum corps audience? I'm pretty sure it'd have the same effect as if movie-making went back. I feel Hollywood NEEDS that... but do they think so? Probably not. So, this is me having nothing to do on a Saturday morning and wanting to add my two-cents. :) I hope this made some sense and added to the discussion. So many replies here are taking this thread in a whole different direction than what I believe was intended by the OP. Although I do not agree with everything the OP says initially, I do understand somewhat what they are trying to get across. edited for grammar. Edited July 9, 2011 by PepsiTwist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) I was not a member in the 70's and early 80's so I can't say that I know what it was like to watch or be a part of drum corps, but I do think this change was great for the activity. I own a lot of VHS and dvd videos of the 70's and 80's and from what I have seen, although VERY entertaining shows - it's kind of the same shows, year in and year out. I'm not complaining, but where was the "raising of the bar" or the "pushing the envelope" in the activity? If I look at the videos of the 1978 Top 12, then right after that put on a video of the Top 12 for 1988, I see and hear a a lot... A LOT.. of changes.. in music, guard, props, show design, visual, etc... you name it. This once again demonstates that we all don't look at things the same way. The notion that shows in the 60's were like shows in the 70's, and that shows in the 70's were like shows in the 80's is thoroughly mysterfying to me. Oh well. The Drum Corps activity in the last 40 years has not been noted for its lack of " pushing the envelope ". Quite the contrary, imo. The activity's change has been hugely transformational in almost every respect of the activity except perhaps that the 17-22 year olders still look the same off the field ( sans the long hair usually.. haha) Edited July 9, 2011 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 The activity's change has been hugely transformational in almost every respect except perhaps that the 17-22 year olders still look the same off the field ( sans the long hair usually.. haha) At least there aren't any more mullets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PepsiTwist Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 If I look at the videos of the 1978 Top 12, then right after that put on a video of the Top 12 for 1988, I see and hear a a lot... A LOT.. of changes.. in music, guard, props, show design, visual, etc... you name it. This once again demonstates that we all don't look at things the same way. The notion that shows in the 60's were like shows in the 70's, and that shows in the 70's were like shows in the 80's is thoroughly mysterfying to me. Oh well. The Drum Corps activity in the last 40 years has not been noted for its lack of " pushing the envelope ". Quite the contrary, imo. The activity's change has been hugely transformational in almost every respect of the activity except perhaps that the 17-22 year olders still look the same off the field ( sans the long hair usually.. haha) I apologize... reading my post back I realize that I wasn't clear at all. :( My brain was going faster than I could type so I was definitely leaving out parts. All I was saying is that I feel that watching those videos on VHS only, since I never experienced it as a live audience member, don't seem to be as unique as shows are today. My point was more or less to say exactly what you did... that the change of things was GREAT for the activity and I found those older shows to not be as "fun" to watch as the activity evolved in the late 80's. Maybe I'm biased because that's when I started marching, but I was trying to praise the change more than say it wasn't changing. Does that make sense? Anyway, I'm distracted by my kids who want to use the computer. :) I'm really sorry about any misunderstanding in what I said. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 No longer applicable?????? The entire activity of modern drum corps has it's roots with VFW, who sponsored most corps. In fact, the entire activity is based upon the drummers who played cadence to keep soldiers marching in step, and the fife players to play patriotic hymns and other tunes to keep the soldiers in good spirits, and to keep their mind focused on the imminent battle. Drum corps exists because of war. Like it or not, it's true. Ok but that is like saying no face mask leather helmets are still relevant in the NFL today. They aren't, but it's fun to see pictures of how things used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drum Corps Nation Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Well, not all "change" is good either. Look where "change you can believe in" got us... I think you mean "look where the people before "change you can believe in" got us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Other Mike Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I think you mean "look where the people before "change you can believe in" got us. is there really a difference ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainshdw08 Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 After reading the recent post's, just thought I'd try to clarify some of what my original post was going for... When I wrote the original post, I was at work (boring day), trying to blaze through the thoughts that were going through my head and put them here as fast as I could. I read through it again but didn't have time to change some of it, but i figured it was good enough to get an adult conversation going. I tried to think of everything people would say, to challenge what I was saying, and write accordingly as clearly as I could. I didn't take into account that because it was so long ppl wouldn't actually comprehend what I was saying and where I was trying to go. I sure as heck wasn't trying to make any current or past corps look bad, as a former member, that would be dumb. By "boring" i didn't mean all the kids/staff on those drum corps sucked, I just meant, to me, it wasn't entertaining and I thought with all that talent, couldnt they have done something better? Let me put it this way. Take the Camaro, Mustang, Challenger for example. The original 60's/70 muscle cars. These cars are cherished today by the people that lived through that era. I would venture to say that most young people today would appreciate them also. So what did Ford, Chevy and Dodge do? They took they original iconic design and infused with with todays technology and capabilites and presto! Bad A** cars! Everyone wants them again. Could this be what Drum Corps needs to do? This is all i'm trying to say. I don't care what kind of Horn you use, Bugle, trumpet, B, G, Silver, Gold... I don't care what kind of drums you play... I'm not saying I hate all color guard, cause they don't twirl 16 rifles at once or toss flags over the horn lines while the drumline is doing a solo... I don't care if you play Jazz, Orchestral, Blues, Soundtracks whatever... I don't care about electronics and how they sound with the rest of the corps... I'm not saying every corps should be like Madison... I'm not saying bring back the old days exactly like they were and lets forget how far drum corps has advanced over the past 30 years or how I'm trying to live in the past... all i'm saying is for the love of God ENTERTAIN ME! Make it cool!! Who wouldn't want to see a corps like, The Bridgemen or VK in the 80's/90's? (disclaimer: the reference to "80's/90's" does not mean the poster wants to go back to that era) I saw a post in the Denver thread tonight from someone who says why are they wasting their talents on shows that are not enjoyable to most fans in the crowd. (posted at 11:32pm post #330) wow...someone said that? thats blasphemy. and of course, he got flamed for it later. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxfreq1128 Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Could this be what Drum Corps needs to do? This is all i'm trying to say. I don't care what kind of Horn you use, Bugle, trumpet, B, G, Silver, Gold... I don't care what kind of drums you play... I'm not saying I hate all color guard, cause they don't twirl 16 rifles at once or toss flags over the horn lines while the drumline is doing a solo... I don't care if you play Jazz, Orchestral, Blues, Soundtracks whatever... I don't care about electronics and how they sound with the rest of the corps... I'm not saying every corps should be like Madison... I'm not saying bring back the old days exactly like they were and lets forget how far drum corps has advanced over the past 30 years or how I'm trying to live in the past... all i'm saying is for the love of God ENTERTAIN ME! Make it cool!! Fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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