Cadets Assault with Thunderous Goo

[danielray]

Yes, you have to gain customers faster than you lose them to grow.

Part of that strategy is to prevent "churn", where you lose customers.

It looks like DCI is trying to address this a bit, but are still missing the mark. They're not addressing the things that are causing the churn and never will, as those things, multi-key, amplification, synths, etc have come to pass.

Making the goo better probably won't help, but I guess they can try.

There's a difference between churn and chaff.

[N.E. Brigand]

Here's how you and I see this differently. To my mind, that line you're talking about doesn't describe where drum corps changes into something else. Who am I to say what drum corps is or isn't? Instead, that line describes where I'm no longer interested.

Despite your eloquent argument that follows, this is just semantics. A symphony orchestra playing seated in a concert hall is not drum corps. But one could easily describe a series of hypothetical steps that would change drum corps to a symphony orchestra (add woodwinds, move indoors, stop marching, etc.) Surely, somewhere along that line, you'd start to object.

What's the difference? The difference is my line accepts the possibility that I might like drum corps that's different from my expectations.

It's a wonderful feeling, if sometime an uneasy one, to have one's expectations overturned. I am here participating in this forum because of such an experience. After seeing the 2004 QF cinecast, itself my first drum corps event in three years, I didn't attend any drum corps again until the 2008 QF cinecast. I had been enough of a fan to buy a few VHS and CDs in the 1990s, and even the History of Drum Corps book (it's not very useful to novices), but was too occupied by other things in life to pay more attention. When Phantom started their "Spartacus" show, I thought that it was hokey; drum corps seemed like the wrong medium to tell a story, no matter how simple. (Santa Clara's "Phantom" shows, based as they are on a poorly-written musical, were such a let-down when I finally saw them on video, after having heard and loved the 1989 performance on CD for a decade.) But PR's excellence and commitment completely bowled me over. How could they get away with such a ridiculous stunt as killing the drum major? But they did. It brought me back to drum corps, and in my zeal to learn more, to DCP. Which convinced me to go to drive Allentown last year and again this year. That said, not all surprises are good: there is no inherent merit in undermining expectations.

Let me put it to you this way. Suppose in 1995 on the heels of Cavies championship, I would have told you that within a dozen years, they would be performing a show that:

--used original music that you couldn't hum on the way out if you wanted to;

--that the program would emphasize visual substantially over music;

--and that the entire program would be built around visualizations of machines and mechanical parts and motion.

Pardon my reformatting your words; I exceeded the allowed number of quotes. In repsonse:

--I would like "Four Corners" and "Frameworks" much more if the music was more engaging, though they have both grown on me a little. Another trend that mostly passed. I find lots of the music of "Spin Cycle" and "Machine" to be hummable. Not so much for "Samurai", but that show has their strongest visuals ever, in my opinion. So there are compensations.

--I could see it coming even in the late 1980s and was hoping for it, as I felt that the visual aspects of drum corps were lacking relative to the music. (I had a hobby of drawing forms and transitions on napkins while I was in college in the early 1990s: I make no claim to any design skill; these were just noodling images and ideas I hoped to see one day.) That said, I agree with those who feel that the pendulum swung too fast too far the other way.

--That doesn't sound any stranger than Suncoast's 1988 show -- which, admittedly, I still don't care for. "Machine" also steals from a 1980s Velvet Knights show, which I call flattery.

I bet you would have said that's not drum corps. I would have too. But it sure was drum corps. And it sure was great. I know in retrospect it's tempting to say you would have heen more visionary in 1995.

I was! You would have lost that bet.

However, your general idea stands even if your specific example of Cavaliers 1995/2006 does not, because...

But think back to 1993. Maybe you were in the stands with me while Star was booed and the booers were saying --and this is a quote-- that's not drum corps. In 1993, just two years before my Cavies question, a substantial portion of the audience was saying Star wasn't doing drum corps because the music didn't have "songs," it wasn't loud long enough, the guard used poles without flags, too much posing and generally too much subtlety.

Well, I was in college in 1993 and had no idea how to see more drum corps than the one local show I'd caught for the past four years. I'd never even seen the PBS broadcast and had only lately heard that there was such a thing. (So I did see Cavies '95 on TV, I think.) But yes, I absolutely agree with you that some drum corps fans (as some fans in any activity) are too hidebound. The most valuable part of the History of Drum and Bugle Corps book, for me, is the essay on the history of drum corps design by Rosalie Sward. Not because it's well-written or particularly insightful (it's not) but simply for mentioning the many arguments over the years that drum corps had ended. People were heard to praise Madison's 1988 championship performance as "real drum corps" -- meaning that they didn't think SCV's first Phantom qualified. Ludicrous! And yes, such history gives me pause. And Star 1993, when I finally saw it, was not immediately appealing to me. Or to many others. It grew on me. But I do think that aesthetically it is at the edge of what can be done. The fact that it takes time to appreciate is important the other way: many audience members are only going to pay once. And just because many objections to change have been wrong does not mean that all objections to change are wrong. (And shows can be overvalued as well as undervalued.) Bearing all that in mind, I have tried to work out consistently and truthfully, often through discussions in these forums, what I like and don't like about any given drum corps show. I have tried to be as open to possibility as I can.* My objections are not merely reactionary but honed through much consideration of both my thoughts and emotions.

I don't know where drum corps is going. The truth is, if I would have a had a vote, I would voted against electronics in 2003 because I thought drum corps didn't need it.

As sufficient corps apparently felt in 2002, when amplification was voted down. They got it right then.

Irrelevant. The talent decides, not us. They made their choice. Added amps and synths. Some things I didn't like. Some I loved.

You have some reasons for loving drum corps. If drum corps no longer had anything to do with your reasons, you can either go along, or walk away. The talent only decides what to produce. We decide whether to support it or not. If the talent goes too far, and enough of us leave, the talent will either change back, or the form will die.

It's here. It's not going away.

Well, the use of voice has sharply declined. Maybe Hopkins secretly decided he hated voice, and did such an awful job of it in 2007 and 2008 to kill it? But who can say what the future will bring.

So I've learned to appreciate what's good. And there's more good than bad. Much more.

I think I agree. But this is a forum where we discuss what we like and don't like about drum corps. And more than any other trend, this one bothers and worries me.

*As a guideline, I refer to the following passage by the movie critic John Simon, particularly the bolded phrase:

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"What is film criticism all about? Praise for our product, says the industry. Recognition, or failing that, constructive suggestions, say the film-makers. Reliable guidance, says the public. All of those things, say the reviewers, except, of course, praise only for good products. None of these things principally, say critics. Critics are after something harder and more elusive: pursuing their own reactions down to the rock bottom of their subjectivity and expressing them with the utmost artistry, so that what will always elude the test of objective truth will at least become a kind of art: the art of illumination, persuasion, and good thinking and writing. The industry is not to be indulged, any more than the film-maker is to be told how he should make movies: the one would be dishonest, the other presumptuous. The public, to be sure, is to be guided, but not in the simplistic way it hopes for.

It is not for the critic to do the reader’s thinking for him; it is for the critic merely to do his own thinking for the reader’s benefit. This may seem like a slight difference, but it is in fact tremendous."

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[Jeff Ream]

The drum corps experience is full of compromises for the fan. Sit too low, you miss the drill. Sit wide and you might not catch the full brass impact. Sit too high or too far back or under an overhang and the sound gets lost.

At any show, a fraction of the audience is seated such that most of the elements fit as intended - accoustic or otherwise. These complaints about electronics are exaggerated in all respects but particularly in the suggestion that some significant portion of the audience noticed anything objectionable other than the fact that it involved electricity.

HH

so you're saying because you can't get thru right away to sit in the perfect zone, a majority of the audience deserves to suffer if there are sound issues?

wow. So glad you don't run my business. Pretty sure most audio driven products would agree

[Jeff Ream]

I wouldn't expect you to. That's the collective you, by the way.

A certain segment of legacy fans brings an obnoxious sense of entitlement to this activity. They behave as if they had a contract with drum corps that guarantees consistent satisfication through predictable returns. They ignore the fact that world changes around and even under them. They don't acknowledge that new people bring new influences and ideas. They want drum corps one way - their way. And when they don't get it, they throw a tantrum.

Witness the recent dicussion nearby about mobile phones and other technology on tour. Half the complaints amounted to: We got along without phones so kids today should too. I happen to agree that constant contact isn't necessary. But that's irrelevant. Kids today see it differently. Who are we to dictate?

There was even more miserable spectacle in the winter/spring when Cadets suggested this program would require a change in the uniform. Before anyone saw any samples, dozens of hooligans screamed, hollered and threatened (a tantrum again) that the Cadets uni was sacrosanct. Can't change. Ever. Why not?

Just like accoustic drum corps. Sure it was accoustic for a long time. Jazz was once accoustic too. Electronics were introduced when the techology and talent were ready. That's the key. The technology has arrived and the talent want to use it. I wish a video existed of jazz snobs decrying the ruin of their beloved art all because someone thought an electric bass might sound cool. I bet it would sound a lot like legacy drum corps snobs throwing tantrums about synths. Then again, maybe not quite that bad.

Why do I care? Because y'all can't shut up about it. I shiver to think what first impressions are ruined when eager rookie prospects stumble on this site and see how their elders carry on. It's shameful. And it can't be productive.

HH

and you do realize more are complaining about a balance issue than total elimination right? Even fans of electronics are saying there are issue with the sound. People who have taught just last year on here have said it.

[Jeff Ream]

I was at Stanford... Arguably not at the peak of the season and certainly not at the cleanest point of the season. However the Electronics that seemed the least in character with their show was most certainly the Cadets. But I also take issue with the OP's premise as although the show is cool and thought provoking... It smacks of 1980 Bridgemen and is most certainly NOT an original concept although it is being talked up as though it were groundbreaking!

I like the show and enjoyed watching it in CA... But that is about as far as it went for me.

if it smacks of 80 Bayonne, please, tell me...did the baritone player get the girl in Winnetka? Did the south win again? Did bama or Auburn win the game?

[Jeff Ream]

Yes, you have to gain customers faster than you lose them to grow.

Part of that strategy is to prevent "churn", where you lose customers.

It looks like DCI is trying to address this a bit, but are still missing the mark. They're not addressing the things that are causing the churn and never will, as those things, multi-key, amplification, synths, etc have come to pass.

Making the goo better probably won't help, but I guess they can try.

well...and I want to say this in a way that doesn't totally insult some of the people leading DCI.

They are businessmen yes, but they also let the artists totally run the show at times. Sadly, as history has proven, great art is not always business smart. For every Tom Cruise, you have 1000's performing in dumpy theaters and waiting tables who may be just as good at acting.

This fall we saw them complain the tour model wasn't working. yet they created it. Kinda like Congress, they didn't admit they screwed up. They looked for scapegoats.

if anything, DCI pushed too much change too fast in too many areas, and it has hurt business. When you count finals and local shows, not that long ago I would see 8-10 shows a season. Now, unless I drive over 2 hours, I'll see Allentown since I'm not going to Indy. In order to see many shows, longer driving distances have become required. that turns off fans. But this is but one of many choices the directors decided upon, and now when it's failing, it's not their fault.

So instead of looking at the past to see where they went wrong, they just keep throwing change after change out there, and have yet to realize change for the sake of change isn't always good. In fact, it's more often than not going to make things worse

[Big Bad Bari]

if it smacks of 80 Bayonne, please, tell me...did the baritone player get the girl in Winnetka? Did the south win again? Did bama or Auburn win the game?

Interesting that you are able to draw the parallel without seeing the comparison... Hmmmmm... Me thinks you see what I see.

[Jeff Ream]

Interesting that you are able to draw the parallel without seeing the comparison... Hmmmmm... Me thinks you see what I see.

I've seen cadets on the fan network and Bayone live and on vhs/dvd many times.

I still wonder tho, when the guard jumps over those sticks in the drum solo and when cadets whistle.

Oh, and will the demons or angels say "bye bye y'all?"

[Big Bad Bari]

I've seen cadets on the fan network and Bayone live and on vhs/dvd many times.

I still wonder tho, when the guard jumps over those sticks in the drum solo and when cadets whistle.

Oh, and will the demons or angels say "bye bye y'all?"

I hope it makes you smile as much as it makes me smile to read as you gently tiptoe throughout and amongst the facts... So then Jeff, a one side against the other side... Be it Angels and Demons or the North against the South OE EVEN RIVAL MAFIA FATIONS like in BD's version back in 2006 where the corps proper or at least the hornline breaks up into two rivals fighting against each other... is not what you see in the Cadets show?

I know I won't get you to say what is REALITY here and I am sure you will wiggle more but my friend... The CONCEPT IS THE SAME!!!!!!!!!

Edited July 30, 2011 by Big Bad Bari

[jjeffeory]

There's a difference between churn and chaff.

Indeed!