An electronics explanation for all the haters

[Audiophile]

****ALREADY APOLOGIZED FOR USING "HATERS" IN THE TOPIC....my bad, let's move along*****

Hello DCP, I love all the heated debates on here. It is so nice to see discusssions going on here rather than facebook or some other social networking outlet. However, I felt the need to at least take a few moments to address some consistent concerns amongst the DCP community at large. I have some experience in the area of electronics/sound reinforcement as well as brass arranging and sound design. I would hope you would all at least take this into consideration before flaming me into the pits of hell :)

I'll try to touch on a few key points here, sorry if the thought process is a bit disjunct

1. "Thunderous Goo"

A. If you are not right behind the judges at every venue in their exact spot, please don't complain about the mix. EVERY corps is mixing for the judges and if you are in the lower level just know that you will be getting an absurd amount of speaker sound. This is even more true in venues where the lower level creates a BASS TRAP that does not allow the desired electronic low frequencies to cut to the box. This is an acoustic phenomenon that is unique to each venue. Any corps at any time may be required to boost their subs to kick some more juice up to the top if the venue's lower level creates a BASS TRAP that cuts the amount of low frequencies traveling to the judge's box. Google BASS TRAP

2. Thunderous Goo versus sounding Tuba pitch

In most cases, the offending goo is actually producing a tone that is an octave below the sounding pitch of the tubas. Even the greatest tuba sections can't project certain frequencies to the box at Lucas Oil. The synth allows the ensemble to project a discernable pitch and fundamental tone that would be otherwise impossible to create by acoustic means. At this point, a lot people would say that we don't need that sound if we can't produce it acoustically. My answer to that would be that I believe certain frequencies DO NOT project and CARRY to the box at Lucas Oil despite the best efforts of staff and members. At that point, one can use synths to ENHANCE(not replace) said frequencies to help them project to the box. Most notable of these are the low frequencies of the tubas. Not to mention that the regular audience member when they go to the movies are used to hearign those low sub frequencies. For all those that would argue that Drum Corps is what it is and shoudl be appreciated for it's raw sound as God intended...didn't Cesario make a mass decree to entertain the audience?? We are also obliged to entertain them sonically, and everyone and their Grandmas these days have surround sound and subwoofers when they listen to music or watch movies. This is now DCI's way of keepin up with the Jones's (more on that idea later)

3. Balance and blend

Regardless of vantage point, there are times when a group's sound system is way too loud. Subs, Mains, Sampler, Synth...it is a delicate web of technology to be balanced with the acoustic corps. BUUUTTTT just because groups have issues with balance from YOUR specific listening point doesn't mean we need to burn the electronics at the stake. And even if that groups sound system is too loud that doesn't mean you can slam the entire concept of amplification. Obviously you need to learn how to use your sound system like an instrument. How about this example..."Man, the new bells on the Mellophones really project their sound to the box more than normal. Too bad they always overbalance the ensemble" ..."Let's burn them alive and get rid of Mellophones all together instead of teaching them how to control their sound"...seems logical??? Then let's not burn the evil electronics just yet, yes?

But again, balance MUST be assessed from the proper point with an extremely trained ear. If you are a brass player you have a penchant for the brass balance, if you are a percussionist you lean that way....you have to have a true macro ear for everything. The top groups in the country are listening to every tape and balancing the sound system live via remote mixing with a listening vantage point as close as humanly possible to the judges for that venue. For those of you that complain and/or are concerned with a particular groups balance...TRUST ME they are WAYYY more worried (and knowledgeable) about their balance, and the judge's assessment of their balance than you could possibly imagine. Infinite tweaks and adjustments are made on a daily basis and if you continue to think said group who is in the top has a bad balance...stand right behind the music judges and take a listen....chances are it's pretty dang balanced this time of the season.

4. Ridculous statements

All the horns mic'd through the PA...are you serious!?!? First of all, understand that there is a whole front ensemble that takes the majority of the highs and mid-high frequencies available from trhe speakers. Speakers aren't magical devices where you can keep pouring sounds into them and they just immediately respond by becoming infinitely louder. Only so much can pass through those speakers. And most of the time, the mallets and synths are at the end of the line, with very little room for anything else.

People talk about sampling brass, and all sorts of ridiculous stuff...look, electronics are there to provide a sonic spectrum that the existing instruments cannot create. Vocals/Singing, sound designed effects, extremely low.high pitches are just a small example of these effects. FOr those that think brass will be sampled...Any uses of replicating/sampling brass will either be done A) so poorly everyone will learn from that groups mistake or B) be done so well it won't actually sound like the real thing and will become an entirely new effect.

Micing solists with effects or not....Corps create MORE SOUND NOW. Speakers and MUCH louder battery instruments contribute to a much louder corps ensemble sound. I for one would like to hear a soloisy play with at least a semblance of technique and sound quality versus laser beaming a high note to the press box and hanging over the release just to probe how high he was actually playing.

The actvity is evolving...to a STRONGER beast. Please help the progress, don't slam it.

5. Keeping up with the Jones's...if the top 6-8 groups are bumping their sound system at a given show and are integrating electronics into everything...ya gotta keep up.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Audiophile

[GMichael1230]

You can explain it anyway you want. The fact is, it wasnt nesceassary when all the greatest, epic shows of all time were presented and since its inception, no "greatest shows of all time" have been created or enhanced by electronics...they have created more headaches than highlights, have not altered playing technique, kept costs down, brought new members in, or created more fans.

Out on the football field the acoustic version of drum corps is what always has worked best. Evolution and change are fine, but not for the sake of satisfying ones ego at the expense of the product, the members experience, or the fans enjoymnet.

Geoffrey

[AquaPatty]

You can explain it anyway you want. The fact is, it wasnt nesceassary when all the greatest, epic shows of all time were presented and since its inception, no "greatest shows of all time" have been created or enhanced by electronics...they have created more headaches than highlights, have not altered playing technique, kept costs down, brought new members in, or created more fans.

Out on the football field the acoustic version of drum corps is what always has worked best. Evolution and change are fine, but not for the sake of satisfying ones ego at the expense of the product, the members experience, or the fans enjoymnet.

Geoffrey

I can't disagree anymore with your post. First off, I think both Blue Devils 2010 and Bluecoats 2010 would not be anything close to the same without their seamless electronic integration. Second, speak for yourself, the fact that DCI has decided to progress along the same lines as WGI in the natural progression of the art makes me appreciate it much more than I previously did (and therefore become a bigger fan). It's also led me and will continue leading me to audition camps, most likely at groups that are more susceptible to good electronic integration. Why? Because I enjoy their products more than others. Granted, I understand the balancing problems, but I think that the new palette of colors that groups are exploring is worth the risk.

To the topic creator: Thank you for posting this. Good luck with the upcoming battle that you will fight.

[Grandpa]

First of all - I love how disagreeing with DCI makes you a "hater". That's a word 13 year old girls use to describe anyone who's not a Justin Beiber fan....

1. "Thunderous Goo"

A. If you are not right behind the judges at every venue in their exact spot, please don't complain about the mix.

Sorry but if I'm not in the select handful of seats I just have to accept lousy sound? Maybe DCI should discount all but the select 20 or so seats if this is really the case.

2. Thunderous Goo versus sounding Tuba pitch

In most cases, the offending goo is actually producing a tone that is an octave below the sounding pitch of the tubas. Even the greatest tuba sections can't project certain frequencies to the box at Lucas Oil.

Is it your contention then that synths are only a stopgap correction for the accoustics at Lucas and will go away when the Indy contract runs out?

3. Balance and blend

Regardless of vantage point, there are times when a group's sound system is way too loud. Subs, Mains, Sampler, Synth...it is a delicate web of technology to be balanced with the acoustic corps. BUUUTTTT just because groups have issues with balance from YOUR specific listening point doesn't mean we need to burn the electronics at the stake.

If the mellos are playing too loud they get hit on the sheets for ensemble. Nobody seems to be doing much with the electronics from what I can gather. Part of drum corps is to evaluate the excellence of the performers. If they're blowing it they get nailed. It seems the electronics can't get it right even with an adult professional sound board engineer correcting problems while the performance is in progress.

4. Ridculous statements

The actvity is evolving...to a STRONGER beast. Please help the progress, don't slam it.

Less corps and reportedly falling attendance. Not sure how you can possibly say it's stronger.

5. Keeping up with the Jones's...if the top 6-8 groups are bumping their sound system at a given show and are integrating electronics into everything...ya gotta keep up.

In short - crap spawns more crap....

[JimF-LowBari]

No surprises in the post...

If you want to hear the shows the way they were intended, sit with the judges. Yeah that's always been the way but appears the "right" seating area is smaller than before. And/or the "non-right" seats get a crappier sounding show than before.

But if you don't lik eit, don't complain as you chose to sit in a crappy seat.

"Keeping up with the Jones" - yep, bad economic times, DC getting more and more expensive to keep alive.... so lets make it harder but adding things....

Edited July 27, 2011 by JimF-LowBari

[skywhopper]

Thanks for posting. Wish you had participated in a few discussions before just nuking the topic from orbit, but I appreciate your thoughts. Hopefully others will feel the same. I disagree with most of your points, though.

If you are not right behind the judges at every venue in their exact spot, please don't complain about the mix. EVERY corps is mixing for the judges and if you are in the lower level just know that you will be getting an absurd amount of speaker sound. This is even more true in venues where the lower level creates a BASS TRAP that does not allow the desired electronic low frequencies to cut to the box.

Not sure how this is a defense of goo. We know that corps mix for the box, that lower-seating gets creamed by the amps and that indoor venues are bass traps. If all of that means that lots of the audience is getting an greatly inferior experience, then it's bad for the activity.

For all those that would argue that Drum Corps is what it is and shoudl be appreciated for it's raw sound as God intended...didn't Cesario make a mass decree to entertain the audience?? We are also obliged to entertain them sonically, and everyone and their Grandmas these days have surround sound and subwoofers when they listen to music or watch movies. This is now DCI's way of keepin up with the Jones's (more on that idea later)

Personally, I don't think drum corps is going to grow its audience by trying to sound like a movie theater. It's much cheaper and easier to go to a movie theater if that's the experience you want.

How about this example..."Man, the new bells on the Mellophones really project their sound to the box more than normal. Too bad they always overbalance the ensemble" ..."Let's burn them alive and get rid of Mellophones all together instead of teaching them how to control their sound"...seems logical??? Then let's not burn the evil electronics just yet, yes?

You are way overdoing the straw-man hyperbole here. If a new mello made a corps sound as bad as electronics sometimes do, then I would be complaining and hoping that the corps would change mellos. If the judges loved the new mellos, then they probably wouldn't. But to the extent that the judge's experience and the audience's experience diverge so much, it's bad for the activity.

For those of you that complain and/or are concerned with a particular groups balance...TRUST ME they are WAYYY more worried (and knowledgeable) about their balance, and the judge's assessment of their balance than you could possibly imagine. Infinite tweaks and adjustments are made on a daily basis and if you continue to think said group who is in the top has a bad balance...stand right behind the music judges and take a listen....chances are it's pretty dang balanced this time of the season.

Not sure how this relates to the typical experience in the audience. I fully believe corps try their best to make it sound right for the judges. Unfortunately with electronics that's coming more and more at the expense of the audience.

All the horns mic'd through the PA...are you serious!?!? First of all, understand that there is a whole front ensemble that takes the majority of the highs and mid-high frequencies available from the speakers. Speakers aren't magical devices where you can keep pouring sounds into them and they just immediately respond by becoming infinitely louder. Only so much can pass through those speakers. And most of the time, the mallets and synths are at the end of the line, with very little room for anything else.

They already mike brass and it often sounds very bad, but that hasn't stopped them, so I don't know why you don't think they want to do more of it.

Micing solists with effects or not....Corps create MORE SOUND NOW. Speakers and MUCH louder battery instruments contribute to a much louder corps ensemble sound. I for one would like to hear a soloisy play with at least a semblance of technique and sound quality versus laser beaming a high note to the press box and hanging over the release just to probe how high he was actually playing.

So how does this fit in with your other comment? Why shouldn't the whole corps play with "better technique" and since when is playing loud bad technique?

I prefer the arrangement and the performers to make room for the soloist. If the ensemble is too loud for the soloist, then amping the soloist is the wrong change to make.

The actvity is evolving...to a STRONGER beast. Please help the progress, don't slam it.

First of all, progress means better sound, better audience experience. So far electronics haven't provided this.

Critiquing the aural experience of a show is all about encouraging progress. If a show sounds bad, that's bad for the activity. The judges may love the sound, but if the audience doesn't, that's bad for the activity.

Please don't dismiss honest criticism as a "slam".

Edited July 27, 2011 by skywhopper

[dmb4040]

1. "Thunderous Goo"

A. If you are not right behind the judges at every venue in their exact spot, please don't complain about the mix. EVERY corps is mixing for the judges and if you are in the lower level just know that you will be getting an absurd amount of speaker sound. This is even more true in venues where the lower level creates a BASS TRAP that does not allow the desired electronic low frequencies to cut to the box. This is an acoustic phenomenon that is unique to each venue. Any corps at any time may be required to boost their subs to kick some more juice up to the top if the venue's lower level creates a BASS TRAP that cuts the amount of low frequencies traveling to the judge's box. Google BASS TRAP

I don't mind an open discussion about electronics. However, I do have an issue with saying that if you are not sitting right on the 50 next to the judges, that you don’t have the right to complain about an absurd amount of Goo. Before the Goo was so evident, you could sit nearly anywhere um and still enjoy the show without one significantly overpowering/overbalanced sound. So pretty much 95% of the audience doesn’t have the right to complain due to their seat location? That just doesn’t jive with me.

[GMichael1230]

I can't disagree anymore with your post. First off, I think both Blue Devils 2010 and Bluecoats 2010 would not be anything close to the same without their seamless electronic integration. Second, speak for yourself, the fact that DCI has decided to progress along the same lines as WGI in the natural progression of the art makes me appreciate it much more than I previously did (and therefore become a bigger fan). It's also led me and will continue leading me to audition camps, most likely at groups that are more susceptible to good electronic integration. Why? Because I enjoy their products more than others. Granted, I understand the balancing problems, but I think that the new palette of colors that groups are exploring is worth the risk.

To the topic creator: Thank you for posting this. Good luck with the upcoming battle that you will fight.

Blue Devils and Bluecoats 2010...so you are saying they benefited from the advent of electronics and wouldnt "work" without them ??

I rest my case. And I will speak as I choose, for the many I know and have known throughout the decades in the activity and you , will take it as you wish.....More people have left than joined the ranks of fans in the last seven years. You enjoy your audition camps. Have fun, hope to see you out on the field someday !

Geoffrey

[danielray]

Burning all the Mellophones alive!?!?! What an absolutely ridiculous statement.

I mean, you don't need to burn all... just a few. The others will catch on rather quickly.

[garfield]

Burning all the Mellophones alive!?!?! What an absolutely ridiculous statement.

I mean, you don't need to burn all... just a few. The others will catch on rather quickly.

"When a man is sufficiently motivated, determination takes care of itself."

Great post, Dan. I now have to wipe down my keyboard and screens.