An electronics explanation for all the haters

[garfield]

To the OP: Welcome to DCP. I trust you'll enjoy the debate here, considering your comments.

I call myself an audiophile, too. Have been for 40 years.

And I completely disagree with virtually every single part of your post.

I particularly disagree with your notion that it's acceptable for DCI to push this activity in a direction that excludes such a majority of the audience from enjoying the "aural" effects of a well-done show.

This isn't ONLY a competitive activity like most sports; there's a significant entertainment component as well. It seems the portion of fans who are there for the entertainment are being excluded under your definition of "acceptable".

I disagree strongly.

[Grandpa]

Burning all the Mellophones alive!?!?! What an absolutely ridiculous statement.

I mean, you don't need to burn all... just a few. The others will catch on rather quickly.

Dear mellophone player - you are cordially invited to the next DCI BBQ as the main entree....

Seriously though, that's virtually what happens at auditions. If you consistently overplay, thanks but you're cut.

Electronics - you're overblowing - you're cut!

Edited July 27, 2011 by Grandpa

[Jeff Ream]

Hello DCP, I love all the heated debates on here. It is so nice to see discusssions going on here rather than facebook or some other social networking outlet. However, I felt the need to at least take a few moments to address some consistent concerns amongst the DCP community at large. I have some experience in the area of electronics/sound reinforcement as well as brass arranging and sound design. I would hope you would all at least take this into consideration before flaming me into the pits of hell :)

I'll try to touch on a few key points here, sorry if the thought process is a bit disjunct

1. "Thunderous Goo"

A. If you are not right behind the judges at every venue in their exact spot, please don't complain about the mix. EVERY corps is mixing for the judges and if you are in the lower level just know that you will be getting an absurd amount of speaker sound. This is even more true in venues where the lower level creates a BASS TRAP that does not allow the desired electronic low frequencies to cut to the box. This is an acoustic phenomenon that is unique to each venue. Any corps at any time may be required to boost their subs to kick some more juice up to the top if the venue's lower level creates a BASS TRAP that cuts the amount of low frequencies traveling to the judge's box. Google BASS TRAP

2. Thunderous Goo versus sounding Tuba pitch

In most cases, the offending goo is actually producing a tone that is an octave below the sounding pitch of the tubas. Even the greatest tuba sections can't project certain frequencies to the box at Lucas Oil. The synth allows the ensemble to project a discernable pitch and fundamental tone that would be otherwise impossible to create by acoustic means. At this point, a lot people would say that we don't need that sound if we can't produce it acoustically. My answer to that would be that I believe certain frequencies DO NOT project and CARRY to the box at Lucas Oil despite the best efforts of staff and members. At that point, one can use synths to ENHANCE(not replace) said frequencies to help them project to the box. Most notable of these are the low frequencies of the tubas. Not to mention that the regular audience member when they go to the movies are used to hearign those low sub frequencies. For all those that would argue that Drum Corps is what it is and shoudl be appreciated for it's raw sound as God intended...didn't Cesario make a mass decree to entertain the audience?? We are also obliged to entertain them sonically, and everyone and their Grandmas these days have surround sound and subwoofers when they listen to music or watch movies. This is now DCI's way of keepin up with the Jones's (more on that idea later)

3. Balance and blend

Regardless of vantage point, there are times when a group's sound system is way too loud. Subs, Mains, Sampler, Synth...it is a delicate web of technology to be balanced with the acoustic corps. BUUUTTTT just because groups have issues with balance from YOUR specific listening point doesn't mean we need to burn the electronics at the stake. And even if that groups sound system is too loud that doesn't mean you can slam the entire concept of amplification. Obviously you need to learn how to use your sound system like an instrument. How about this example..."Man, the new bells on the Mellophones really project their sound to the box more than normal. Too bad they always overbalance the ensemble" ..."Let's burn them alive and get rid of Mellophones all together instead of teaching them how to control their sound"...seems logical??? Then let's not burn the evil electronics just yet, yes?

But again, balance MUST be assessed from the proper point with an extremely trained ear. If you are a brass player you have a penchant for the brass balance, if you are a percussionist you lean that way....you have to have a true macro ear for everything. The top groups in the country are listening to every tape and balancing the sound system live via remote mixing with a listening vantage point as close as humanly possible to the judges for that venue. For those of you that complain and/or are concerned with a particular groups balance...TRUST ME they are WAYYY more worried (and knowledgeable) about their balance, and the judge's assessment of their balance than you could possibly imagine. Infinite tweaks and adjustments are made on a daily basis and if you continue to think said group who is in the top has a bad balance...stand right behind the music judges and take a listen....chances are it's pretty dang balanced this time of the season.

4. Ridculous statements

All the horns mic'd through the PA...are you serious!?!? First of all, understand that there is a whole front ensemble that takes the majority of the highs and mid-high frequencies available from trhe speakers. Speakers aren't magical devices where you can keep pouring sounds into them and they just immediately respond by becoming infinitely louder. Only so much can pass through those speakers. And most of the time, the mallets and synths are at the end of the line, with very little room for anything else.

People talk about sampling brass, and all sorts of ridiculous stuff...look, electronics are there to provide a sonic spectrum that the existing instruments cannot create. Vocals/Singing, sound designed effects, extremely low.high pitches are just a small example of these effects. FOr those that think brass will be sampled...Any uses of replicating/sampling brass will either be done A) so poorly everyone will learn from that groups mistake or B) be done so well it won't actually sound like the real thing and will become an entirely new effect.

Micing solists with effects or not....Corps create MORE SOUND NOW. Speakers and MUCH louder battery instruments contribute to a much louder corps ensemble sound. I for one would like to hear a soloisy play with at least a semblance of technique and sound quality versus laser beaming a high note to the press box and hanging over the release just to probe how high he was actually playing.

The actvity is evolving...to a STRONGER beast. Please help the progress, don't slam it.

5. Keeping up with the Jones's...if the top 6-8 groups are bumping their sound system at a given show and are integrating electronics into everything...ya gotta keep up.

If I may:

1) We, as paying customers DO have a right to complain. If these corps can not produce a good sound, people will stop coming. There is more to this activity that the final decision of the judges. If that approach is going to be the corps take, then I can't wait to see their next set of excuses as funds continue to dry up.

Drum corps is an audio/visual spectacular. If the audio is impairing enjoyment for people, then, the corps either a) need to listen or b) get ready to do with less money.

I'm not saying amps need to go or electronics. But if you can't please ALL of the people sitting 20 to 20, then really, you're suckering the customer, and sending them home unhappy. And sending customers home unhappy does, will, and HAS affected the bottom line.

2) thank you for proving that enclosed stadiums/domes are worse for this. Which only amplifies the issues since almost all of the major shows are inside.

3) no offense, I'm not sold that the corps know what the hell they are doing with blend and balance given the years of issues now, and from posts made by staffers, I'm pretty sure the judges aren't 100% up to speed either.

4) bottom line, this is an issue DCI and it's member corps need to address. Since they have already refused to take accountability on the myriad of issues cuasing their current financial status like touring, etc, I'm sure we will see more of the same with this issue

[BRASSO]

Hello DCP, I love all the heated debates on here. It is so nice to see discusssions going on here rather than facebook or some other social networking outlet. However, I felt the need to at least take a few moments to address some consistent concerns amongst the DCP community at large. I have some experience in the area of electronics/sound reinforcement as well as brass arranging and sound design. I would hope you would all at least take this into consideration before flaming me into the pits of hell :)

I'll try to touch on a few key points here, sorry if the thought process is a bit disjunct

1. "Thunderous Goo"

A. If you are not right behind the judges at every venue in their exact spot, please don't complain about the mix. EVERY corps is mixing for the judges and if you are in the lower level just know that you will be getting an absurd amount of speaker sound. This is even more true in venues where the lower level creates a BASS TRAP that does not allow the desired electronic low frequencies to cut to the box. This is an acoustic phenomenon that is unique to each venue. Any corps at any time may be required to boost their subs to kick some more juice up to the top if the venue's lower level creates a BASS TRAP that cuts the amount of low frequencies traveling to the judge's box. Google BASS TRAP

2. Thunderous Goo versus sounding Tuba pitch

In most cases, the offending goo is actually producing a tone that is an octave below the sounding pitch of the tubas. Even the greatest tuba sections can't project certain frequencies to the box at Lucas Oil. The synth allows the ensemble to project a discernable pitch and fundamental tone that would be otherwise impossible to create by acoustic means. At this point, a lot people would say that we don't need that sound if we can't produce it acoustically. My answer to that would be that I believe certain frequencies DO NOT project and CARRY to the box at Lucas Oil despite the best efforts of staff and members. At that point, one can use synths to ENHANCE(not replace) said frequencies to help them project to the box. Most notable of these are the low frequencies of the tubas. Not to mention that the regular audience member when they go to the movies are used to hearign those low sub frequencies. For all those that would argue that Drum Corps is what it is and shoudl be appreciated for it's raw sound as God intended...didn't Cesario make a mass decree to entertain the audience?? We are also obliged to entertain them sonically, and everyone and their Grandmas these days have surround sound and subwoofers when they listen to music or watch movies. This is now DCI's way of keepin up with the Jones's (more on that idea later)

3. Balance and blend

Regardless of vantage point, there are times when a group's sound system is way too loud. Subs, Mains, Sampler, Synth...it is a delicate web of technology to be balanced with the acoustic corps. BUUUTTTT just because groups have issues with balance from YOUR specific listening point doesn't mean we need to burn the electronics at the stake. And even if that groups sound system is too loud that doesn't mean you can slam the entire concept of amplification. Obviously you need to learn how to use your sound system like an instrument. How about this example..."Man, the new bells on the Mellophones really project their sound to the box more than normal. Too bad they always overbalance the ensemble" ..."Let's burn them alive and get rid of Mellophones all together instead of teaching them how to control their sound"...seems logical??? Then let's not burn the evil electronics just yet, yes?

But again, balance MUST be assessed from the proper point with an extremely trained ear. If you are a brass player you have a penchant for the brass balance, if you are a percussionist you lean that way....you have to have a true macro ear for everything. The top groups in the country are listening to every tape and balancing the sound system live via remote mixing with a listening vantage point as close as humanly possible to the judges for that venue. For those of you that complain and/or are concerned with a particular groups balance...TRUST ME they are WAYYY more worried (and knowledgeable) about their balance, and the judge's assessment of their balance than you could possibly imagine. Infinite tweaks and adjustments are made on a daily basis and if you continue to think said group who is in the top has a bad balance...stand right behind the music judges and take a listen....chances are it's pretty dang balanced this time of the season.

4. Ridculous statements

All the horns mic'd through the PA...are you serious!?!? First of all, understand that there is a whole front ensemble that takes the majority of the highs and mid-high frequencies available from trhe speakers. Speakers aren't magical devices where you can keep pouring sounds into them and they just immediately respond by becoming infinitely louder. Only so much can pass through those speakers. And most of the time, the mallets and synths are at the end of the line, with very little room for anything else.

People talk about sampling brass, and all sorts of ridiculous stuff...look, electronics are there to provide a sonic spectrum that the existing instruments cannot create. Vocals/Singing, sound designed effects, extremely low.high pitches are just a small example of these effects. FOr those that think brass will be sampled...Any uses of replicating/sampling brass will either be done A) so poorly everyone will learn from that groups mistake or B) be done so well it won't actually sound like the real thing and will become an entirely new effect.

Micing solists with effects or not....Corps create MORE SOUND NOW. Speakers and MUCH louder battery instruments contribute to a much louder corps ensemble sound. I for one would like to hear a soloisy play with at least a semblance of technique and sound quality versus laser beaming a high note to the press box and hanging over the release just to probe how high he was actually playing.

The actvity is evolving...to a STRONGER beast. Please help the progress, don't slam it.

5. Keeping up with the Jones's...if the top 6-8 groups are bumping their sound system at a given show and are integrating electronics into everything...ya gotta keep up.

You make some compelling points. However they may have been lost right from the getgo in the unfortunate initial naming of your thread title to whom the comments are directed, ie "... the haters ". This is not advantageous in my opinion as sets a tone that is counterproductive to imparting a fair hearing to the points you want to make in a convincing manner upon that I am sure you want to have from your remarks. Just like a good pitcher that has a great pitch to throw, the art is not the pitch itself, it is in the delivery of the pitch, and the location of the pitch. You have a great fastball here. But you missed the strike zone because your delivery was a bit off right from your wind up that was fundamentally flawed.

Edited July 27, 2011 by BRASSO

[MikeN]

I just don't agree with the idea that overpowering synths are somehow the audience's fault for daring to think they're too loud. Can we say that for a trumpet that sticks out of the ensemble as well? "They were just trying to project to the box - you're just hearing it wrong?"

Mike

[Jeff Ream]

You make some compelling points. However they may have been lost right from the getgo in the unfortunate initial naming of your thread title to whom the comments are directed, ie "... the haters ". This is not advantageous in my opinion as sets a tone that is counterproductive to imparting a fair hearing to the points you want to make in a convincing manner upon that I am sure you want to have from your remarks. Just like a good pitcher that has a great pitch to throw, the art is not the pitch itself, it is in the delivery of the pitch, and the location of the pitch. You have a great fastball here. But you missed the strike zone because your delivery was a bit off right from your wind up that was fundamentally flawed.

so the thread title was "just a bit outside"

then when you add in the points "ball 4....ball 8....ball12..."

[corpsband]

If I may:

1) We, as paying customers DO have a right to complain. If these corps can not produce a good sound, people will stop coming. There is more to this activity that the final decision of the judges. If that approach is going to be the corps take, then I can't wait to see their next set of excuses as funds continue to dry up.

Drum corps is an audio/visual spectacular. If the audio is impairing enjoyment for people, then, the corps either a) need to listen or b) get ready to do with less money.

I'm not saying amps need to go or electronics. But if you can't please ALL of the people sitting 20 to 20, then really, you're suckering the customer, and sending them home unhappy. And sending customers home unhappy does, will, and HAS affected the bottom line.

2) thank you for proving that enclosed stadiums/domes are worse for this. Which only amplifies the issues since almost all of the major shows are inside.

3) no offense, I'm not sold that the corps know what the hell they are doing with blend and balance given the years of issues now, and from posts made by staffers, I'm pretty sure the judges aren't 100% up to speed either.

4) bottom line, this is an issue DCI and it's member corps need to address. Since they have already refused to take accountability on the myriad of issues cuasing their current financial status like touring, etc, I'm sure we will see more of the same with this issue

The FN is WAY WORSE than live. The low energy freqs are saturating the mix. This happens anytime you record drum corps . Even before electronics if the bass line came up front it could saturate the signal; wailing on the concert basses can do it too. This why you have to roll-off some of the extreme lows. This nonsense about "true fidelity" is just that -- nonsense. How many fans listen from the top of that mic stand on the track? Zero !!

The FN simply needs to put a parametric eq on the extreme low end to create mix which when reproduced sounds like what the human ear would hear if they are sitting roughly where the judges sit. We don't care what it sounds like at the track. Give us 50 rows up on the 50 please. The DVDs have a reasonable balance with electronics so obviously they compensate for the low-end. I don't know why the FN doesn't do the same.

Edited July 27, 2011 by corpsband

[The Other Mike]

1. "Thunderous Goo"

A. If you are not right behind the judges at every venue in their exact spot, please don't complain about the mix. EVERY corps is mixing for the judges and if you are in the lower level just know that you will be getting an absurd amount of speaker sound.

Which proves my point that if you don't have perfect seats, stay home and get a better experience in the theater or fan network.

For you to come on DCP and lecture as if none of us have a clue as you defend the horrible experiences some corps are creating for the people who PAY for the experience is insulting.

Maybe you get away with this sort of BS with a junior high AV class but any high school band student has enough common sense to understand that you miss the point of the whole argument.

To say that ticket buying fans have no room to complain ? Kiss my fat ### on the 50 at finals

[BRASSO]

so the thread title was "just a bit outside"

then when you add in the points "ball 4....ball 8....ball12..."

He had the" balls" to come on here and post his opinion. So in my book he gets a huge amount of credit for that anyway.

Edited July 27, 2011 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

The FN is WAY WORSE than live. The low energy freqs are saturating the mix. This happens anytime you record drum corps . Even before electronics if the bass line came up front it could saturate the signal; wailing on the concert basses can do it too. This why you have to roll-off some of the extreme lows. This nonsense about "true fidelity" is just that -- nonsense. How many fans listen from the top of that mic stand on the track? Zero !!

The FN simply needs to put a parametric eq on the extreme low end to create mix which when reproduced sounds like what the human ear would hear if they are sitting roughly where the judges sit. We don't care what it sounds like at the track. Give us 50 rows up on the 50 please. The DVDs have a reasonable balance with electronics so obviously they compensate for the low-end. I don't know why the FN doesn't do the same.

yet we hear complaints live, indoors and outdoors.